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bi-amping

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by hyperlitem, Jun 17, 2002.


  1. hyperlitem

    hyperlitem Guest

    Jul 25, 2001
    Indianapolis, IN
    ok ive heard my fair share of goods and bads of bi-amping, but have yet to try it. Heres the setup im getting and would someone tell me how they think this will sound. I have a hartke 7000 head and a hartke 4x10 8ohm cab. Im getting an swr goliath 2x10 with a horn. Im not sure if its an 8oh or 4 ohm cab yet though. If they dont sound good together its no biggy, i was really just getting the 2x10 as a smaller practice amp, but i do play sum large venues and a little more sound wouldnt hurt. Whats your guys opinions on this. Also im picking the cab in good condition up for $300.
     
  2. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    I doubt it will be much worth it if all you are using for your lows are more tens. If you get a cabinet with 15's, you might find it desireable. Otherwise, I'd recommend you just run both cabs full range.
     
  3. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Supporting Member

    I've tried biamping (with tens over tens, and tens over 18) and noticed no improvement over running each cabinet full range. YMMV, of course... maybe I didn't try hard enough, and maybe your gear/style are more suited to improvement.


    Isn't the frequency response of the speaker box the most important factor, and not the diameter of the speaker(s) in the box?
     
  4. RAM

    RAM

    May 10, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    What are the negatives?:confused:
     
  5. Signal suck at the crossover point.
     
  6. hyperlitem

    hyperlitem Guest

    Jul 25, 2001
    Indianapolis, IN
    thanks for the input. the negatives ive heard of bi-amping is that a certain frequency range is lost. Like theoretically if you used a 4x10 for low frequencies and a 2x10 for high frequencies your mids might dissapear. I kinda hope this happens cuz i use a smily face eq anyway, and im not a fan of mids at all on bass. I guess my other question is how is the swr goliath gonna sound with the hartke aluminum cones?
     
  7. hyperlitem

    hyperlitem Guest

    Jul 25, 2001
    Indianapolis, IN
    ok i just found out the 2x10 is 4ohm and my 4x10 is 8 ohm, will that work? I know it will work with my amp but how will it sound. Thats 240 watts going into the 4x10 and 350 watts going into the 2x10.
     
  8. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Commercial User

    Mar 8, 2000
    Gaithersburg, Md
    Boom Bass Cabinets, DR strings
    Unless your 210 has a problem reproducing lows, I'm not sure what the point is. Let's say you set a low pass at 150Hz. Nothing above 150Hz would be sent to your 410. You'd lose what the 410 can produce above that range. Set the crossover higher and you'd lose a lot of what the 210 can easily reproduce. Go high enough and you'd end up with basically a large tweeter enclosure.

    Of course you could run the 410 full range and roll off the lows on the 210, "IF" the 210's were having a problem with lows. I'd run them full range and see if that worked first. You might be surprised. There are indeed negatives to biamping. It depends on the setup. I doubt I'll ever do it again.
     
  9. jerry

    jerry Doesn't know BDO Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 13, 1999
    Hawaii
    There was a time when I bi-amped most of the time, now with full range cabs.....it's kinda a waste of wattage.
     
  10. Golem II

    Golem II

    Jan 4, 2002
    Macon, GA, USA
    If you used a pair of filters instead of a standard crossover (for instance, the crossover in a yamaha PB-1 Preamp, or an Alembic SF-2,) and set the high and low pass filters to overlap each other, would that bypass the problem of "signal loss at the crossover point"?

    I'm not sure if I've got the right idea here, but I biamp for two reasons... first, sending the extreme lows to one cab prevents excessive speaker movement in the other cab (which lets them put out mids more efficiently or something to that effect, or so I've read,) and second, you can run FX on the high side without losing pure low end. If your head doesn't have a stereo FX return, and all you've got is 10"s, there's probably no point in biamping.
     
  11. hyperlitem

    hyperlitem Guest

    Jul 25, 2001
    Indianapolis, IN
    can i just run both cabs at full range? will that be similiar to a 6x10? the 2x10 is a 4ohm and the 4x10 is an 8ohm. At this point i just wanna run the most volume i can, but i love the sound of 10's.
     
  12. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Shouldn't happen. If the two cabs have the same response, and you run one with the low-pass output and one with the high-pass output, the sum total should be the same response as the original cab. It's possible that the response would change off-axis around the crossover frequency, but I don't think the result would be anywhere near "your mids would disappear".

    If you set the crossover so the two halves overlap, you'll get a "bump" at the crossover region.

    But like others have said, no real reason to bi-amp with two fairly similar cabs.
     
  13. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    That'll make things difficult. If you just put them in parallel on the same amp channel, the 2x10 would get twice the power that the 4x10 gets, which wouldn't be so good.

    You could run them on separate channels (each full-range) however, and adjust each volume as necessary. Hopefully the sensitivity of each cab is fairly close (3-4dB) otherwise again one will be getting much more power than the other.
     
  14. Nick man

    Nick man

    Apr 7, 2002
    Tampa Bay
    What hartke 4-10 cab are you talking about?

    The Transporter 410TP 4-10 goes down to 40Hz.

    The Profesional series 4200 4-10 goes down to 30Hz.

    So do the XL series 4.5XL and the 410BXL.

    The SWR 2-10 reaches down to 45HZ.

    If you are using the 410TP then biamping will give you close to nothing, while if you are using any of the other 410s, you will gain a decent amount of bass.

    SWR 10s sound very different from Hartke 10s, so beware that you will have to re-tweak your EQ when you get the new cab.

    Peace
    Nick
     
  15. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Commercial User

    Mar 8, 2000
    Gaithersburg, Md
    Boom Bass Cabinets, DR strings
     
  16. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Commercial User

    Mar 8, 2000
    Gaithersburg, Md
    Boom Bass Cabinets, DR strings
    Actually you won't gain bass, you'll lose the low and upper mids and the highs the cab would normally produce.
     
  17. I bi-amp very nicely using all pro-audio components. The crossover is a Rane MX-22 and has separate volume controls for both the high and low range. The crossover point is adjustable from 100 to 3200 Hz and there is no signal suck-out or any other anomaly at the crossover region. The 24dB per octave slope is very good about keeping the highs and lows separated. Rane uses the Linkwitz-Riley type crossover to avoid the phasing problems inherent in less sophisticated crossovers. The MX22 is an active crossover, and is totally independent of varying speaker impedances or mixed-impedance loads.

    I also have a Rane GE30 interpolating equalizer (2RU) in the circuit, but find I really don't need it. My rig is set up with a Rane RA27 real time analyzer and calibrated mic which gives an LED display of system response on 1/3 octave increments. I can balance the crossover point and two volume controls, and don't have any problems at the crossover point.

    The downside to bi-amping is the extra components and larger rack. I'd need a 3RU rack to carry my SWR preamp and QSC power amp, even if I was driving a conventional cabinet. Add 1RU more for the crossover, and it can all fit into an SKB 4RU rack. That's about as small as it gets. Rane gear is 100% XLR balanced to eliminate hum and signal degradation. It is available constantly on eBay for reasonable prices.

    In the end, I want to wind up with a pair of QSC power amps, one for each bi-amp range. This will let me drive four 1x15 subs and four 1x10 highs in various combinations, and have the ability to reconfigure a power amp on a gig should I lose one. The bi-amping part of my rig is easy... the hard part is all the damn speakers.
     
  18. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Agreed that theoretical and real don't necessarily correspond. However, theoretically, it's not a sharp cutoff. Instead, both the high and the low end start to rolloff slightly before the crossover frequency. So they are both 3dB down at that frequency. When you add the result (both cabs in this case), it adds up to 0dB. And there's no trouble designing a simple crossover filter to follow these rules - in reality the summed outputs of the crossover will be very nearly flat.

    Also, flat or not, the added flexibility of the Yamaha-type system (individual frequency and level for each half) is a good thing, as you've experienced. :)
     
  19. Nick man

    Nick man

    Apr 7, 2002
    Tampa Bay
    But since the cab handing the bass isnt taking on the load of those other frequencies, you can push it harder with the low frequencies without so much distortion, thereby gaining bass.

    Peace
    Nick
     
  20. Golem II

    Golem II

    Jan 4, 2002
    Macon, GA, USA
    If you don't want to carry a lot of rack equipment, try using an Alembic F-1X, SF-2 or Yamaha PB-1 as your preamp and a stewart world 1.2 as your poweramp. Two rack spaces.
     
    Count Bassie likes this.