Blew another 10" in a Eden 210XLT

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by sneaky pete, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. sneaky pete

    sneaky pete

    Feb 10, 2002
    Yakima, WA
    First off, this is a great sounding box, I really like it and it's perfect for what I need. I play mostly with a good PA that 2x dual 18's move my sound for me so I use this for on stage monitoring. The rig is a Yamaha BP1 into a Carvin F600 (one channel 200w @ 8ohms) into the Eden. I sometimes use an octaplus with settings not to extreme on the low end.

    So last week at a gig I pushed the preamp into the amp a little hard and heard the VC rub on one driver. F***! this is the third time I'll have a driver in the shop in this box. I have an Eden 410xlt and never blew a driver ever. The problem is the box isn't big enough for the 10's.

    I don't want to recone incase the drivers are warped, what drivers would your guys recommend replacing these with (around $100ea)?

  2. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    If this is so, its very apparent that this 210 is NOT the perfect cab for what you need . . . no offense . . .
  3. tornadobass

    tornadobass Supporting Member

    Nov 20, 2000
    Iowa City, Iowa
    Endorsing Artist: Black Diamond & SuperSensitive strings
    Perhaps you're a little short on power and clipping the power amp?
  4. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Knowing what to replace with requires knowing the specs of what's in there. As far as I know Eden does not publish the specs on their supposedly proprietary drivers. I once had some conversation with an Eden designer about their drivers, as their claimed performance seem to defy what is actually possible according to Mssrs. Theile and Small. When pressured for specifics he quickly changed the subject.
  5. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    See? I keep trying to tell you guys, those 10" speakers have many issues associated with them. :D

    They're getting better though. Recently i've heard some pretty good ones. I finally got a chance to play through a Wayne Jones cab, and it was pretty amazing. I'm not even sure if he's still in business anymore, I hope he is. But his speakers are definitely "special". They have some very extreme excursion capabilites. That's probably why they can survive the high power required for bass work.

    EV is making some pretty good 10-inchers these days. That might be worth checking into.

    The other thought is, contact Ted Weber and ask him for his opinion. He's probably one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet, when it comes to speakers. Currently he specializes in vintage-style guitar speakers, but he could definitely tell you what's going on, and make some recommendations. I take his word as Truth, pretty much. He's been very helpful over the years. :)
  6. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I've got an Eden210xlt. Great cab, but a like most 2x10's, it doesn't cut it as a stand alone. Mate it with a 15 or with more 10,s and it's excellent. On it's own, I could get it hitting X-max very easily, even at moderate volumes.

    I suggest you re-cone it, then reconsider your rig.

    And what do you mean by "warped drivers". You're not worried about bend frames are you?
  7. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Terrific Twister

    Apr 12, 2001
    Lacey, WA
    No chance of user error, eh? I run into more guys trying to make their rig do things it can not. After a couple blown drivers, most guys figure it out.

  8. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    Good point, but no. No chance of that here. Been around too long, and probably made every mistake under the sun at one point or another.

    But you make a good underlying point too, which is that one shouldn't try to push speakers beyond their capabilities. If one does, one takes the consequences.

    The concept I've arrived at, in terms of speakers and how they sound, is the "limit of capability". My take is, many speakers sound best when they're pushed. There are plenty of speakers that achieve a nice clean sound at low power levels, but when it comes to bass playing in live (and possibly large) venues, they don't cut the mustard. That's when cones start flying across the stage, and that kind of thing. :D

    My quest has been for speakers that are both "reliable", and "sound good". That's a very difficult combination to find, in my experience. The Bag End's are probably some of the best, IMO. You can push them "right to the breaking point", and they just keep sounding better and better. Those speakers can go places no mere mortal has ever been. :)

    In fact, anyone here can drop me an e-mail, and I'll send you a couple of sound clips of a big Bag End rig with various basses. Those speakers can do stuff no one else even comes close to. I can push a set of S-15's till their cones are practically popping out of their sockets, and not only can they handle the power, but they achieve an amazing sound.

    Plus, they make peoples' pant legs vibrate at fifty yards, which is my goal. :D:D:D
  9. sneaky pete

    sneaky pete

    Feb 10, 2002
    Yakima, WA
    Here's the deal, any speaker put into the wrong sized box will over exert itself (especially in a box tuned too high). The nice thing about double porting a box like the 210 is a little better LF extension. Sad thing is that extension can't be really below 55hz or so.

    Yeah the Yamaha prolly put too much signal into the Carvin (1.2v sensitivity for full power @ 8 ohms). It sux since the yamaha can't be turned up past 3 on the input and there is no master output pot. The XLR out has a pot but can't be past 2 or make sure your board has an input pad (my 01V does). The 1/4 UNbalanced doesn't have a level control.

    EV has way too many speakers to count. I could get some DL10X's (EVM's... eh, never been impressed, I wouldn't waste my money on Force 10s). Maybe Eminence Delta's or Kappa's.

    You can tell a company really hasn't thought out the 210 design since they use the same drivers that are in a 410. Smaller enclosure means different Thiele Small parameters, so different drivers! Damn, I'm venting again. I love Whiskey!

    Gotta go...

  10. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
  11. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I'm pretty sure that's not the problem - doesn't the 210XLT have more volume per driver than the 410XLT? It sounds like the problem is that the 210 simply won't go loud enough for you - that extra 3dB of efficiency and 3dB of power handling which the 410 has adds up to another 6dB of headroom - loud enough for your needs, so you never blow the drivers.

    I think sometimes we expect too much from 1x12" and 2x10" cabs - look what guitarists and PA systems have to reach similar volume levels - far more speakers in bigger cabs. And we need to move more air as bassists which makes life even harder for these little cabs.

  12. Danm


    Sep 24, 2003
    Canberra Australia
    I'd never do a gig with just a 2x10'...... Guaranteed I'd kill it...

    If you will indulge me for a minute I will tell you my 0.02 Isn't that what forums are all about?) :eyebrow:

    Anyhoo, I started playing out again ( after 10 yrs off, what a learning curve??) and bought the 2x12 combo (400w @ 4 ohms, Aussie made..oy oy oy ). Heaps 'o power, brilliant sound (with my new Stingray... Maybe cuz I've wanted one for 20+ yrs )

    But I couldn't hear myself on stage. Even when I had a friends EV TL15 plugged in ( and damn that was loud!!)

    Long story short.. With an extra 4x10 It's heaps better... I figure ( and tell people ):

    The 4x10's are for me &
    The 2x12's are for the audience..

    I tell ya, tens are the best for onstage sound, coz (IMO) they develop the sound a lot closer (to where u are ). But you need 4x10's... Most of the time they are cheaper than 2x10's anyway. Or not far off... I paid (Aussie) $1050 for the 4x10 which is 4 eminence delta's 600w RMS... but they wanted $850 for the 2x10... Go 4x10... They won't have to work as hard & will last for years if in the right enclosure...

    Change that sucker to a 4x10 & rock out!!!!!!!
  13. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    ahhhh, i feel as if must give up my BE crown to you now ............
  14. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    Nope, you're the Man! I'm just your disciple, is all. :D
  15. Doug Parent

    Doug Parent Supporting Member

    May 31, 2004
    San Diego, Ca.
    Dealer Nordstrand Pickups.
    You've probably made your mid up by now, but I'll toss my 02. in just for typing practice anyway. I had a Yamaha PB-1. Almost blew a speaker or two by pushing it too hard with the bass control too high. Also, I consider a 200 watt amp (@8 OHMS) UNDER powered considering your competeing with a sizable PA and with only a 2-10 cab. I've blown an Eden driver before while playing synth bass through it. Burned the VC.
    I agree with the other posts, recone the driver for $80 and sell it or keep it and use another cab. My expirience with Eminence equipped cabs has been very good. I've been playing in loud ass clubs with a 5 string and 800-1200 watts typically and have never creased or burned out speakers in my Bergantinos. (sly plug eh?)
  16. sneaky pete

    sneaky pete

    Feb 10, 2002
    Yakima, WA
    The PA we use is mine. Most of the time it's EV S15 tops over Eminence Dual 18" bottoms powered by an EV 2.0kW for tops (550w @ 8 per channel) and a Carver PT2400 on the subs (1200w @ 4 per channel). I don't compete with the PA, even with just a 210 I can get pretty loud and that box does well at projecting low mids out front. But it is only for my stage use. The guitarist uses a 40w tube Fender amp, keyboardist uses 2x mackie srm450s (stereo but respectful volume wise). 4x wedge mixes are powered by QSC 1450's or Yamaha XS350s.

    Lookig over what happened that night I think the Yamaha clipped the front end of the Carvin amp which sent chopped waves thru the cab. The cab is 8 ohm which is wired as 2x 4 ohm drivers in series! I'd be happy with 2 8's in parallel but at the time I wanted an 8 ohm enclosure. Oh well.

    FWIW th yamaha is run flat, eq @ 12 o'clock and pre amp volume @ 9 o'clock. There is no post gain output.

    I may just buy 2x 8 ohm drivers and throw them in there and see how they fair. Could be worse, I'm just tired of blown drivers. I haven't blown ANY drivers in the PA I have (4x dual 18 subs, 4x 15+1" tops, 8x wedges) any I do power them properly. Seems like the 350w rating of the Eden is high with 2 drivers in series.

    Sorry for the rant. thanx for all your input.
  17. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I don't think that's it. A clipped amp sends out more watts than the amp is rated for. Your 200W amp at 100% THD will put out 400 watts, and believe me 100%THD sounds absolutely horrible. The sort of clipping your talking about would produce a no-where near the amount of watts needed to blow a 350watt speaker.

    I own the same cab and I know it well. I still think it's an excursion thing.
  18. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Total Hyper-Elite Member Gold Supporting Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
    I was thinking that, but wasn't going to say it. Also, the cab is a 350-watt cab. As tornadobass said, your 200-watt amp is probably clipping when you try to squeeze some volume out of the cab. You are seriously underpowered. Realistically, you need 500 to 700 watts available for that cab to have appreciable headroom.
  19. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    i'm gonna go with the overexcursion crowd here. i used a 210xlt for a few years and really pushed it without incident. generally with 200-250 watts. Bass boost may be the culprit. There are others that can explain it better than i, but it's my understanding that there is a point of the frequency spectrum not much lower than the tuned frequency of vented cabs where damage is likely if the cab is pushed in that freq. range.
  20. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    This is true but it's not as cut and dry as that. I know that the Eden 2x10 is tuned to 38Hz. I once used a dB meter and a sine wave frequency generator to do frequency response graphs of all my speakers. I've attached the graph for the 210xlt.

    As you can see it starts to roll off sharply at 65Hz. Trying to get it to work hard at anything lower than this is asking too much of the cab. Getting below the tuned 38Hz is never going to happen without some sort of problem.