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Building Speaker CAB 10" or 15" ???

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Gubbe, Feb 15, 2006.


  1. Gubbe

    Gubbe

    Feb 15, 2006
    Hello everybody!
    I'm thinking about building my own CAB. My original plan was to use eminence B102 10" speakers to build a 8* 10", but after simulating it in WinISD it seems that it won't produce enough lows without the cone exurtion being to large. Today I'm using 4 Beta 10" in an old closed ampeg box, they sound great, but the real low-end is missing, so I thought about building a vented 8*10. I have looked around, and it seems that 8*10 are often closed design, maybe lower bass (I play in D, so about 36 Hz is what I want), and vented designs are more suited for 15"?
    Although I love the tight punchy 10" sound, maybe I need to reconsider?
    Lately I played some 4*12, and they sounded really warm and had more bass than my setup, so now I'm just confused!!!

    Anyone up for a more technical discussion?
     
  2. fdeck

    fdeck Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 20, 2004
    Madison WI
    HPF Technology LLC
    How much amp power do you have?
     
  3. 4runner

    4runner WARNING!"WALL OF DOOM" does "exceed" 140 decibels!

    Feb 11, 2006
    Hackensack NJ,
    Hey Gubbe,
    In my opinion, a 10" driver can reproduce frequencies, just as low as any 18" driver can, as long as it can move as much air; thats where excursion comes in. I'm currently using 2 Electrovoice B410 cabs tuned to 36 hz and they sound thunderous. There are a lot of reflex [ported] 4 or 8 ten cabinets on the market, and setting up a cab with after market speakers to respond the way that you want can be a lot of fun....and money. If you've already decided to build your own cabinet, take your time and plan what you would like it to sound like. There are a lot of places to choose RAW CHASIS loud speakers from like US SPEAKER.COM. There are also plenty of websites with information to help you learn to tune the cab to have a specific frequency response; like Ishtek.com. good luck
     
  4. Joey J

    Joey J

    Jul 12, 2005
    You shouldn't even think about building a cab without looking at Fitz's stuff at www.billfitzmaurice.com and chatting with other guys who have already built them at http://audioroundtable.com/BillFitzmaurice/
    If you're a good woodworker you can take tow of your Beta 10s and put them into a DR250 and Tuba 24 and outpush an SVT 8x10, I know, I've tried them side by side. If you need an easier build you can do two of the Betas into an Omni 10 and one to a T24, or if you want a one-box solution the Omni 15 beats El Whappo, again, I've tested them side by side, no comparison.
     
  5. Gubbe

    Gubbe

    Feb 15, 2006
    To "fdeck"; my current amp is an Ampeg SVT III PRO, 275 W in 8 Ohm, 450 W in 4 Ohm, but in the future I will probably move to an all tube amp, 300-400 watts or so.

    There are lots and lots of speaker design forums out there but I haven't really found one that deals whit speaker cabs for instrument amplifiers. There are the Hi-fi forums, where everything is about minimizing distortion, then there are some about PA speakers, witch is a bit closer to home, but these aren’t usually wideband speakers, they all have different units for different frequencies, and the design is rather different.
    I want to build a speaker design without crossovers and tweeters. I want the speakers to sound good in themselves, and I want them to contribute to the coloration of the sound!
    The Tuba speakers are tuned bass designs, not to much treble or midrange, right?

    Is there anyone that has built a ported 8 or 4 ten that goes below 40 Hz? What drivers are recommended?
     
  6. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    It can be done, but there are sacrifices. With existing speaker technology, it's a case of "Loud, Low, small - pick any 2".

    You're looking at 10"s (ie. Small), that can go low. So based on the above rule of thumb, that means you have to sacrifice the loudness. A typical Car or home Hi-Fi 10" sub will get you low enough, but they won't be very efficient. In other words, if a car sub is fed an equal number of watts as a Beta 10 for example, the Car sub will produce considerably less overall SPL. Nor will it produce enough mids to give you the punch associated with pro-audio 10's.

    Most 10" loaded cabs on the market go for a compromise. Most, despite the claims, start to trail off at 60Hz or so. The exception being the Acme which is designed to go lower, but is less efficient. It also uses a separate 5" for mids, highlighting what I said before.

    You noted the PA market doesn't produce too many wide-band speakers. That's because they've worked out the benefits of using multiple size drivers to reproduce the frequencies they're best designed to reproduce. Applying this to bass cabs works equally well. For example, mixing a 4x10 with a 1x15, or perhaps a 2x12 with a 6" mid (like mine) The available combinations are endless and are subject to peoples preferences, but it's worth trying at least once in your life.
     
  7. greenboy

    greenboy

    Dec 18, 2000
    remote mountain cabin Montana
    greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
    When you say "goes below 40 Hz" do you mean +/- 10 dB or something that actually impacts output in a practical way like +/- 3dB? Truth is, you've set your sights way too loooow if you expect 40 Hz to be there in a single driver that can also fill the midrange all the way to where a tweeter takes over... Actually there aren't too many smaller portable subwoofers that can even do 40 Hz at -3dB at performance levels. Regardless of how many bass cab manufacturers would have you believe otherwise with their spec sheets.
     
  8. Try the Legend BP102 instead of the B102; you will find it will have lots more bass. This does come at the expense of both efficiency and high freq. response but you could try to solve that by making it a 6x10 ported + 2x10 sealed cab. The ported enclusure will have the BP102;s and the sealed part will have the B102's. You can make this by dividing the 8x10 cab in 2 parts. (I never tried this, but i think this will work out OK)
     
  9. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    You need a much bigger amp. Borrow somebody's rig that has 1000 watts and your current cab will sound alot better! Go from there.
     
  10. Gubbe

    Gubbe

    Feb 15, 2006
    I think it would work good too, but I have no supplier for the BP102....

    I have been thinking about something like this, because I like the punch and control I get from my 4X10", but I also liked the warm smooth tone from my friends 4X12" why not combine them?
    My mind has been locked on 10", or if I had to go bigger 15":ns, but I never liked 15", so then I'm back to 10":ns again, but they don't have the big bass, so I never finish my design!!!:crying:
    Maybe 2X12":s are the perfect answer!!!
    What about 6X10" and 2X12", will that make a absolutely ridiculously large cab?
    Maybe 4X10"/2X12" is better? But then the impedances will not be optimum....
    Are there any standard sizes to cabinets that I should follow? Nobody in my band owns a car, but it seems that no matter what car we borrow, my 4X10 and our guitarists 4X12 always seem to fit in there somehow... This is not something I would like to change!
     
  11. fdeck

    fdeck Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 20, 2004
    Madison WI
    HPF Technology LLC
    As an intellectual exercise, try this one on for size: Eminence 151311, sold by Madisound for $79. It is not in their Eminence price sheet, but in a separate "pro audio" price sheet.

    http://www.madisound.com/pdf/proaudio.pdf

    Impedance = 8 Ohm
    Fs = 38.2 Hz
    Xmax = 5.5 mm
    Re = 5.0 Ohm
    Qms = 7.73
    Qes = 0.32
    Qts = 0.31
    Vas = 299 Liters
    Sd = 850 cm^2 (computed)
    Le = 1 mH (my guess)
    Pe = 300 Watts
    Sensitivity = 99 dB

    Try a vented box, volume 80 liters, port tuning 48 Hz. The -3 dB point is somewhere around 60 or 70 Hz. I have not built this speaker, since I am using the same driver in a much smaller box, but it seems like a pretty mainstream design and the driver is a bargain. One of these, with an appropriate midrange and the SVT, would seem like a dream rig for rock music. Building this thing give you a platform upon which to experiment with the business of crossovers, ports, etc.

    I am not the most experienced speaker designer on this forum. But I can offer one piece of advice: Don't get fixated on 41 Hz.
     
  12. Crockettnj

    Crockettnj

    Sep 2, 2005
    North NJ
    doesnt the 12" driver to the left of it look maybe better? same f3 in a way smaller box, albeit with 4 fewer db sensitivity.

    just a thought.
     
  13. fdeck

    fdeck Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 20, 2004
    Madison WI
    HPF Technology LLC
    I have that driver too (admittedly, Madisound is down the street from me). Model it in a 19 liter box with 50 Hz port. It has a bit of a hump, an excursion limit of 2.5 mm, and a power rating of only 150 W. I am pleased with its sound as an extension to my GK MB150E combo, but I would not call it my best work ever.