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Car Subwoofer for a Low-End Cab? v2.0

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Ccarson26, Apr 16, 2021.


  1. Ccarson26

    Ccarson26

    Jan 24, 2012
    Reno Nevada
    Wanted to share with the community who are interested in this concept that it actually works Great!!

    See original thread here:

    The Goal was to add some powerful low end to my bass rig.. The open B-string has always been a little lacking for me, regardless of the cabs or amps used.. Yes I have properly powered cabs and quality gear..

    No PA subwoofer I have heard ever delivered what I thought to be enough quality low-end you can feel..

    So I set-out to put together what I believed to be a proper low-end cabinet..

    Current Set-Up:

    Guitar Amps/Cabs:

    Mesa Boogie Bass 400+ - Dirty Channel
    Mesa Titan Big Block V12 - Clean Channel
    Crown XLS 2500 - Subwoofer Amp (signal fed from direct DI output of Titan V12)
    Ampeg PR-410HLF x3
    Ampeg PR-115HLF x1
    RE Audio XXX v2 15" Driver - Custom Sealed Cabinet

    All I can say is - Amazing!!!

    Cheers,

    IMG_0446.jpg




    IMG_0453.jpg


    IMG_0559.jpg



    IMG_0554.jpg



    IMG_0561.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2021
  2. 6thplanet

    6thplanet Supporting Member

    Aug 17, 2019
    Indiana
    Good on ya! Got roadies to drag all that to a gig?
     
  3. Ccarson26

    Ccarson26

    Jan 24, 2012
    Reno Nevada
    That is not really my goal.. Thanks
     
  4. AlexanderB

    AlexanderB

    Feb 25, 2007
    Sweden
    There is a lot of... passion (?) in that setup. You can learn a lot about bass amplification setup by combining your gear in different ways. Good luck!
     
    BBassBassington likes this.
  5. Ccarson26

    Ccarson26

    Jan 24, 2012
    Reno Nevada
    Yeah theres alot of cool stuff you can do with gear.. Been collecting for years..
     
    AlexanderB likes this.
  6. 6thplanet

    6thplanet Supporting Member

    Aug 17, 2019
    Indiana
    Right on:thumbsup: One heck of a practice rig, some people gripe over living in an apartment and having to use headphones!
     
    Element Zero and BBassBassington like this.
  7. smperry

    smperry Administrator Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Nov 3, 2003
    Bay Area, CA
    The last thread was closed due to the arguing (after the thread was started with a question to solicit opinions). Since it's now a finished product, I'd request that folks that have a negative opinion leave it to themselves. Questions about weight or purpose are within the rules, but I'm saying that to avoid this thread going in the direction of the last one. Thanks.
     
    Hoyt and mcnach like this.
  8. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    As near as I can tell, nobody said nuthin'. :smug:
     
    Ccarson26, MYLOWFREQ, ThePez and 2 others like this.
  9. rickdog

    rickdog Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 27, 2010
    Holy Xmax! I found that driver with a simple web search: woofers

    There are documents with cab designs & TSPs... to save others the trouble of looking for them:

    Fs = 21.52 Hz
    Qms = 6.401
    Vas = 3.837 cu.ft
    Xmax = 2.3 in
    Sd = 128.6 sq.in
    Qes = 0.38
    Re = 1.716 ohms
    Le = 2.017 mH
    Z = 2.059 ohms
    Pe = 2000 watts

    I have no doubt it delivers "low-end you can feel." You should probably call the USGS and have them turn off their nearby seismometers when you are practicing. ;)
     
    Ccarson26, Hoyt and honeydorick like this.
  10. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    Although these specs are a bit different than the ones I found for that driver, in any case, the Xmax is somewhat astonishing. I think the specs I saw were an Xmax of 54 mm (!) and a Fs of 19.1 Hz. Yikes!
     
    Ccarson26 and honeydorick like this.
  11. Oh My gosh, I have wondered for years How & why car amps and car subwoofers can be so clean on the lows and have earth shaking ability at lower volumes.Why has no one come out with a musical instrument bass amp or cab for a smaller area as a car,Like a normal size room or venue, that can push an insane clean low b you can hear a block away like a pipe organ in a church, without having the volume to loud to enjoy the other sound plus the air pushing out of the cab ARH! ARH! But volume still low enough to be in smaller areas.I was going to buy a huge car speaker with a huge x max huge voice coil and huge magnet and huge poly web like the one shown above, and a decent car amplifier to try my own experiments.Ive been experimenting with my own cab designs for years. Im looking for earthshaking lows at lower volume.Has anyone else tryed this kind of experiment?Why wont musical instrument companies try somthing like that.Super clean, with no distorsion.?Yall no by now I cant spell LOL.My Peavey 250 max comes close with the kosmos button but as I raise the volume the thunder starts to go away.I want it all! In a smaller package of course
     
    Ccarson26 likes this.
  12. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    This is a pretty esoteric sub..

    The Sensitivity for XXX15 is ~86dB and our theoretical dB change to max volume (1W-2000W) is ~33dB. 86+33=119dB. 119dB for max volume is really extremely low for musical instrument duty, and its probably even worse than that. I suggest subtracting subtracting about 4dB for power compression 119-4=115dB.

    I found a vented model for the driver

    upload_2021-4-17_1-13-22.png

    The response plot is actually pretty impressive IMHO.
    upload_2021-4-17_1-14-13.png

    So as long as you can afford the driver and and big amp to push it, and 115-119dB meets your volume requirements :thumbsup:.

    Here's a website that appears to have the driver in stock for $679 as B-stock: RE Audio XXX v2 15" (xplicitaudio.com)

    Keep in mind the driver alone weighs 76lbs. You did say you wanted a small package, right? :whistle:

    I sure this sub actually sounds quite nice. I am not convinced it's practical for most musical instrument or pro sound applications, but I have done stuff that is every bit as out of the ordinary :bag:.

    Since the OP is happy with the results, :thumbsup:.

    If you decide you want to go down a similar path, just make sure you understand the necessary investment, and also the actual advantages and limitations of this sort of technology. There actually are reasons why you don't see a bunch of bass players and audio techs running this type of subs. Probably the biggest issue is the ratio of SPL produced per dollar invested is extremely low. But you can definitely spend more on high-end pro audio gear. If you want to spend a wad on high-end subwoofers to will play low, take a look at Danley Labs: Danley brochure 2012 (danleysoundlabs.com)
     
    Ccarson26 likes this.
  13. AlexanderB

    AlexanderB

    Feb 25, 2007
    Sweden
    In all fairness, the response curve you found is probably not the one he gets from his sealed (not vented) cab, and at 2-3 times the enclosure volume. His cab is way larger than the 4 cu ft in the vented model, or than the PR-410HLF next to it.

    And while it is a massive driver, its motor is too weak to allow full utilisation of the geometry and mechanical robustness. The Qes is too high, so EBP puts you straight in sealed box range, where the long stroke plus moderate VC is a non optimal combination. So it will not perform like it could have in a sealed cabinet, and will not benefit much from venting.

    However, the saving grace would be the tall VC and the long stroke, and if the flux pattern and VC zone cooling is properly designed, the power should be lower than one thinks.

    That said, all of our speculation is based in a set of T/S parameters found online, and we have no idea if that is how the driver would ACTUALLY measure. Secondly, some VC / magnet gap designs will yield "odd" paramaters, but will behave in a different manner once "the rubber hits the road".

    I would really like to hear it in use.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  14. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    Yes I would enjoy hearing and playing around with it as well.

    My post was not meant to imply that the frequency response chart is representative of the OPs cab. But I could see how someone who does not have a basic understanding of this stuff might draw that conclusion.

    If you are curious, the company website has four models for the driver, two sealed designs and two vented designs here: woofers (reaudio.com)

    The sealed models have nowhere near as much low frequency extension, so apparently the driver benefit fine from venting.

    The box properties and frequency response chart in post #13 are from the larger of the two vented designs. As far as I can see, the smaller vented design has the best performance, but runs out of excursion quicker below Fb; so it is more reliant on an HPF to protect the driver from over excursion. The Maximum Electric Input Power graph suggests its not that big of a difference.

    You seem to know more about this stuff than I, so maybe you see see something in the graphs that I am missing.
     
  15. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    Someone asked if anyone else has considered doing something like this. Here's one of my fever dreams that is sort of in the same vein.

    Years ago there was a pretty high end sub that a lot of people were raving about in the HiFi community. I believe it may have been the Peerless XLS12 (but don't quote me as this was about 20 years ago). The idea I had was to build sort of a modular low-boy subwoofer array with boxes that had two or four of the XLS12s in a row. Multiple cabs would be laid end to end across the front of the band stand, as needed.

    Relevant XLS12 Specs:
    Power Handling 150W RMS/300W Max
    Sensitivity ~88dB 1W/1m
    Vented Volume 1.5'(cubed)
    F3 33Hz
    Impedance 4 ohms
    Weight 14.34lbs

    Obviously one of XLS12 drivers would be pretty modest as far as SPL capabilities, but I was thinking 8-16 of them would be plenty for the type of venues I typically play. I wasn't looking for the massive SPL that pro sound subs can produce, I was looking for the tight controlled lows of HiFi subs.
     
    Ccarson26 likes this.
  16. Redbrangus

    Redbrangus Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2018
    Under The X In Texas
    I bet you're glad you awakened from that particular fever dream; luckily, no plywood was harmed. :D
     
    Wasnex, agedhorse and honeydorick like this.
  17. Thanks for the info guys.Ill just keep my Max 250,its all I can afford.The science is amazing if you understand it.Im a Wright Brothers kind of guy experimenting with these things.Somtimes I fly and somtimes I dont.
     
    Ccarson26 likes this.
  18. nice idea - I have wondered about that, too. When I was into full range systems, I went with with a folded horn / labyrinth tuned to 30 hz, then to 4 boxes ported to 36hz. The FH worked the best, but not on stage - I could rattle a room, but no bottom end on stage. The ported and tuned boxes worked much better but that was a coupling issue, where all 4 speakers worked together to create a wall of air pressure. The issue with all subs is wavelength. Car subs work by simply moving a lot of air, which may or may not be accurate. But they sure can thump.

    And I remember there was a speaker company (Cerwin - Vega?) that made a sub that was motor driven. Just for under 40 hz.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  19. 6thplanet

    6thplanet Supporting Member

    Aug 17, 2019
    Indiana
    The Phoenix Gold Cyclone was a motor driven "air mover". There's a really cool video of a fan type subwoofer. It has blades that can change pitch ( like a helicopter) that produces sub frequencies.
     
  20. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
    May 10, 2021

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