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Carol Kaye

Discussion in 'Bassists [BG]' started by Treena Foster, May 29, 2003.


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  1. Do any of you listen to Carol Kayes bass playing:bassist:
     
  2. rllefebv

    rllefebv

    Oct 17, 2000
    Newberg, Oregon
    You can't listen to '60s - early '70s music without listening to Carol Kaye... Or watch the Brady Bunch!! Much maligned because of some very questionable claims that she played on some Motown hits attributed, (by nearly everyone who would know), to James Jamerson... and her opinionated, outspoken views about studio bass playing... That still doesn't take away from her obvious playing skills or body of known work.

    Did she play on everything she claims to have?? Most likely not... Could she have played those songs?? Definitely!

    -robert
     
  3. Robert, sorry I am new here and I have now seen that there is a Carol Kaye thread already running.
    I am happy to meet someone from Oregon though who knows about Carol. I just moved here from CA and I feel lost!!!:meh:
     
  4. Robert,
    what is your take on Kaye v Jamerson? I am not wishing to debate this, just looking for answers!:confused:
     
  5. 1) The songwriting-production team of Holland-Dozier-Holland attested to the fact that James Jamerson played on almost every one of their productions, and they never allowed others to produce songs that they had written. Brian Holland signed a notarized affidavit categorically stating that "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Can't Help Myself", "Keep Me Hanging On", "Standing in the Shadows of Love", "Reflections", "Baby Love", "Back In My Arms Again", "Come See About Me", and "Can't Hurry Love", (all tunes claimed by Carol) were in fact, played by James Jamerson. Most damning was his statement that he had never even heard of Carol Kaye.

    2) Smokey Robinson who wrote or produced probably 30-40 percent of Motown's biggest hits also denied that she had any major role in the Motown story, and had no part at all on the songs in question.

    3) The performance credit that Carol has pursued with the greatest tenacity over the years is the bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her". Hank Cosby who co-wrote, produced it, and who, in his own words, "was there every step of the way from the writing of the song to the day the 45's were shipped", vehemently denied any participation by Carol Kaye on this recording. Cosby added, "Fifty percent of the song was James Jamerson's bass line. No one played like that but Jamerson." Cosby also signed an affidavit similar to Brian Holland's attesting to Jamerson's performance.


    In my opinion, Carol Kaye didn't play on all the songs she claimed to.
     
  6. rllefebv

    rllefebv

    Oct 17, 2000
    Newberg, Oregon
    I'm with Thulsa... Too many people who were there saying Carol wasn't... Now granted, neither was I, but it does tend to raise a bit of a credibility question...

    Did she play on everything she claims to have?? Most likely not... Could she have played those songs?? Definitely!

    What I meant by that is that while it's doubtful that she recorded these tunes, her playing and reading skills were/are such that she could have. That she probably didn't record them in no way changes the fact that she did record an extensive body of work, much of it great! It also doesn't alter the fact that her outstanding instructional materials have helped thousands of bass players improve. She was a trailblazer in the early '60s and '70s studio scene, not only in what she played, but the fact that a woman could hack it in what was almost exclusively a "man's world"...

    Just my opinion, but we seem to get so caught up in the argument over who played what that we lose sight of all of the great music that she and James Jamerson did play on... :)

    And I agree... we need more Oregonians here!

    -robert
     
  7. I am in touch with Bob Lee, Allan Slutsky and Carol Kaye on a daily bases. I feel torn between both "camps" on this subject.
    1) I do believe that LA musicians were doing studio work for the Motown label. If you read the Mix, May 1 2001 article from Armin Steiner, he ran a "garage studio" out of his mothers home...while working at Radio Recorders, he is a well known Recording engineer who also did some L.A. Motown sessions.
    http://industryclick.com/magazinearticle.asp?releaseid=6190&magazinearticleid=99449&siteid=15&magazineid=141
    here is the link.
    2) Earl Palmer a great Jazz drummer also states in his book, he played many dates in LA for Motown with Carol Kaye being the bassist.
    There is so much more to this then meets the eye!
     
  8. satie

    satie

    May 30, 2003
    none of those affidavits she has on her site name the songs that she claims to have played on. From 1972 on almost all the reputable players in LA worked for Motown at one time or another. Those affidavits prove nothing IMO. The following affidavits however were by the producers of the songs in question:

    http://bassland.net/bh1.htm all the listed Supremes and Four Tops records of the 1960's

    http://bassland.net/hc1.htm I was Made To Love Her by Stevie Wonder

    Brian Holland of HDH and Henry Cosby (whom I spoke to personally).

    Treena (nee girlbassplayer1), I pointed you to these affidavits so I know you have knowlege of them. WHat have you to say?

    BL "satie"
     
  9. I have told you in my emails what I have to say and I am still looking for more answers, is there anything wrong with wanting answers? I am open and honest with my questions!
     
  10. satie

    satie

    May 30, 2003
    Never mind... I was just trying to give you the answers you seek.

    BL
     
  11. Thanks BL I saw the site months ago, I even downloaded all the info , I just can't see why she would lie...ya know?
     
  12. DigMe

    DigMe

    Aug 10, 2002
    Waco, TX
    Maybe she really believes it. Age and the passage of time can do strange things.

    brad cook
     
  13. Brad have you ever spoken to Carol Kaye?
    Treena:confused:
     
  14. DigMe

    DigMe

    Aug 10, 2002
    Waco, TX
    I said "maybe," Treena. No, I haven't spoken to her but my "maybe" doesn't require having spoken to her. It's just one option. We all try to understand the reasons behind this whole controversy. That's just one possible reason. Also, my statement doesn't automatically imply senility or something. I occasionally find out that I have erroneous memories of things that happened when I was a child and I'm only 27.

    brad cook
     
  15. Thank you for honesty. I am very much like you, I wish there were a straight answer though!
    :help: :confused:

    I have played for 33 years and I love both styles, I love history too. I know that BL has been through this over and over and now I come into the picture with the same questions. I will keep quiet and just do more research!:confused:
     
  16. wulf

    wulf

    Apr 11, 2002
    Oxford, UK
    For Carol Kaye and the estate of James Jamerson I guess there may be some financial side to the question, and as a history graduate, I can see a certain interest in figuring out an answer based on the available sources.

    However, for me as bassist, the main thing is that those Motown lines are smokin' - what I'm really interested in is not who played them but how they were thinking and how that can improve my approach to what I play on.

    Wulf
     
  17. I am with you 100% ;)
     
  18. rllefebv

    rllefebv

    Oct 17, 2000
    Newberg, Oregon
    'Zactly! This is what I've been trying to say :)

    -robert
     
  19. Beefbass

    Beefbass Guest

    Feb 4, 2001
    I listen to Carol's playing-I also use her educational materials.
    Love them both-her playing, and the educational materials. :)
     



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