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Chronic Schroeder Rejection

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by BassJunkie730, Jan 26, 2006.

  1. BassJunkie730


    Feb 3, 2005
    Ok guys I can't help it. And I'm pissed - mostly at my self.

    So I had my second full band session with the 21012. Guys, this just isn't working for me. I got so bad that at one point the drummer asked me "I can't hear the bass." :eek: I will try my best to explain.

    I set my T-funk flat and I ran a very tight sounding PJ with two week old DR fatbeams into the 21012. for some reason I can't have my cake and eat it too with this thing. with the amp flat the lows are massive, sheer "heaviosity." But the punch lies a lot lower than what I (and the rest of my band are used to). Don't get me wrong it does sit nicely below my rhythm guitarist (who already has a very bassy tone) but I'm lacking punch in the 400 - 800hz arena. I find the best way to dial in a sound with more cut is to simply adjust the Timbre but then I loose some fullness. So thinking that I was just having a bad day and that I was crazy - I switched back to my Bag End stack - Instantly the mids were very present again - and I could dial in fullness - however -the cabs started to fart out again - and they are just a tad too hard sounding. To compound things my bandmates really like my baggie stack for it's small footprint even though I am disappointed with its sound. Which means the 21012 is a bit too big and heavy. I just can't win in this game.

    So I will call out to all of you again for cabinet/ rig advice.

    I am not parting with my T-Funk (i've decided to take it to the grave :D )

    So the 21012 lack the natural cut I'm looking for and it's a bit big.
    The Bag End's are a little too hard sounding in the mids (makes them sound really boxy) and they are farting out with the T-Funk.

    What should I do?

    I honestly think I should go back to the 1210 but I would like to run two and I can't do that with the thunderfunk (Jorg, are you listening - I need an 8 ohm 1210) UNLESS the 1212 has the cut. If 2 1212s stacked are going to sound like an unber 21012 then I'm not interested. but if the smaller cavity for the angled 12 int eh 1212 results in higher tuned mids then I may go for it. If a 1212 stack could be like a super Bag End stack then I'll go for it.

    However I'm also entertaining non-schroeder cabinets as well.

    My Cab Pre-reqs.

    Somewhat small (no more than 55 lbs and a relatively small foot print)

    Modular (so I can have a small rig and a big rig - but not feel like I'm sacrificing anything when I'm using just one)

    Great handling (recently i've noticed my Bags sound like they can't handle my T-Funk - I can't explain it- the cabs are in excellent condition - they just sound like they are farting out.)

    Efficient - I've been spoiled by the sheer loudness of Bag Ends and Schroeders (the only cabinets I've ever owned).

    Tweeter control - I can't tell you how much it bugs me not having an attenuator on the Bag End S15X-D

    LOUD!!! I sold a 1210 because it wasn't loud enough, now i have a 21012 and it's LOUD enough, but the voicing is too low, I find my self trying to dial cut back in - way to WOOFY and uncontrollable for me.

    If someone out there can convince me that the 1212 has the midrange punch of the 1210, then I'll go for two 8 ohm 1212s and call it a day.

    Currently I have a Schroeder 21012, a Bag End S15X-D and a Bag End S15D


  2. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    Some combination of cabs/bass's/heads, even though they are all wonderful individually, sometimes don't work together, or result in a sound that's 'not the sound in your head'. If you are getting to much low end for your sound (the speaker in the baffle does seem to define Jorg's cabs sound), you might want to look at a neo 410.... much lighter than the 21012 regular, and the 410 should give you a lot more punch.

    That being said... I cannot imagine that you can't EQ that cab to punch with the very powerful TF EQ... make sure you have that enhance totally off and the timbre relatively flat.

    Good luck.

  3. BassJunkie730


    Feb 3, 2005
    Thanks KJ,

    I've been running with the enhance at 5- I'll be sure to cut it completely off next time I play.
  4. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    That might help, since that will tend to scoop your mids... great for those Bags.... maybe not so good for the 21012. You might just not like the sound of that cab.... it happens. However, I have a feeling you will be able to dial something in that should sound pretty good. Try the enhance off to start with, and just dial in a small amount if needed.

    Good luck with it.

  5. BassJunkie730


    Feb 3, 2005

    I just realized that that's what the enhance does :)scowl: :rollno: :meh: :bag: gotta go back to the manual)

    If the enhance knob is as sensitive as the timbre knob then there is a whole tone in my head that I've not heard.

    If I can get the mids back, and reduce the boominess of the cab - I'll keep it. But I'm also thinking about the neo 410

    I guess the 21012 and the 410 are like apples and oranges in terms of tone.

    One step at a time. :D
  6. RicPlaya


    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI

    EQ baby! I would say bring up some mids, boost around 2k for a littel more cut and definition. How far were you from the speakers?

    If the guitars have a lot of lows you are sharing freq's with them. Maybe ask them to turn down the lows a bit too. Like I said to confront bassy guitars and be heard in the mix I found boosting mids and a little around 2k helps IMO.
  7. buzzbass

    buzzbass Shoo Shoo Retarded Flu !

    Apr 23, 2003
    I'd be inetrested in you 21012 if you decide to part with it.
  8. BassJunkie730


    Feb 3, 2005
    Believe me, I've treid to get my rhythm player out of my range. But hey still rides his neck pickup and favors low mid overdrive without tight support from a high powered power section. He calls it "girth". I call is mud. But he tends to wash out too.

    About the EQ issue - Since so many people here run their TFs flat I thought that a good measuring stick for a cab is to hear it with the amp flat.
  9. RicPlaya


    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    Is it the cab?

    have you ran other Schros with this head?
  10. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Terrific Twister

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    I'd start right here. This was normally the problem I found when I wasn't cutting through. I started calling one of my guitar playing buddies the "Freq Thief". :)

  11. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    +1 I agree with SMASH that the enhance control is not as impactful as the Timbre control. However, if you crank that enhance, you are not running the amp anywhere near flat. True flat on the TF is with everything EXCEPT the enhance control at 12 o'clock and the enhance all the way off. That's where I'd start, and then just tweek the enhance a touch if things sound a little nasally.... I usually run my enhance on around 3 or so with the 1210 and on around 2 with the 1212...

    Mess around a little more. However, if you really like the sound of those Bags... the 410Neo might get you more inherent punch and much less weight if you can't get the 21012 to behave. Again, good luck!
  12. RicPlaya


    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    They can have low mids..just not extreme lows.

    Mudd slingers!
  13. el_Kabong


    Jul 11, 2005
    It's also worth raising the cab up off the floor. That will tighten the lows and reduce the boominess you mentioned. Don't underestimate the difference this can make just coz it's low tech and free! Also, you're not set up in a corner at your rehearsals are you? Worst place to be with the symptoms you describe.
  14. Crockettnj


    Sep 2, 2005
    North NJ

    the nehance is a lacl of mid knob. actually, i have a different name for the enhance knob. its called the **** knob. imo the instant smiley face eq it gives sucks the balance tone and cut right out of your rig... unless you are jamming by yourself that is.

    trim the enhance back to 0, or maybe less than 0 if you could.

    it aint no timbre knob, thats for sure.
  15. DAcat


    Jun 14, 2005
    BassJunkie730... In Jorg's ad for the 21012, he describes it as giving thunderous lows like an 18" speaker-I haven't tried one yet,but I do have a 410,which can also really deliver the goods when it comes to low frequencies. What settings do you have your master volume,EQ,bass,mid,and treble setings at? I use a Yorkville XS800 head and I had to roll off the bass on my head because of the massive lows this cab produces,turned down any bass boosts in the tone settings on my amp and bass preamps,turned up the mids, and just used more volume on the master-trust me these cabs can take the watts-and the cabs really opened wide up at higher wattages,and sounded better and different than at lower settings-to the point it was scarey good/loud(not like most cabs which sound worse when you turn up the volume)...if you've put enough watts into that cab, I can't believe that your guitarists won't be asking :help: you to turn down,...but if the lows are still too massive even with all the EQing -maybe that cab is just doing exactly what Jorg designed it to do - as he said in his ad above;) ...Good Luck...PS...My 410 is the best sounding cab live I have ever heard!!!!!:D :D :D :D :D
  16. cb56


    Jul 2, 2000
    Central Illinois
    You're going to find that few speaker cabs can cut through the mix like those Bag End 15 cabs. That's what they do. As far as low end thump,... well that's another story. They sound boxy when played solo but when the band kicks in that's when they shine. When I had my Bag End 15 cabs I pumped 500 watts into each of them and they never farted out even on low "B" but I wasn't pumping a ton of low eq through them either. maybe that's the problem? just a guess.
    I eventually switched from Bag End 15's to Aguilar 12's but Im ended up needing three of the Aggies to do what 2 Bag End cabs could do because of the mid scoop in the Aguilars. I don't know anything about schroeders but my suggestion would be to keep the Bag End 15's and add low end thump with the PA system when you can.
  17. jokerjkny


    Jan 19, 2002
    NY / NJ / PHL

    why not boost that area w/ the TF's semi-parametric EQ? that's what its there for. :eyebrow:
  18. BassJunkie730


    Feb 3, 2005

    I know I know, that seems to be the feedback. what can I say I'm lazy. I'm like a mastiff that needs a big backyard even though I'll never use it.

    I was hoping I could run the amp flat.

    I'll see if I can steal off to my rehearsal space to rectify this.

    I think I just freaked out when I was in rehearsal the other day and the cab was shining in a frequency range that I'm not used to (up until this time I had full mix experience with three types of cabs, A schroeder 1210, a borrowed Berg NV610, and a pair of bags - all have a very present midrange.)

    I just find it hard to commit to one piece of gear. I love the head - I just need to learn how to use it with this cab - and if the result is the tone I'm going after.

    I'd really like to hear from the T-Funk/ 21012 users out there and their first impressions especially if you changed from a more mid heavy setup.

    Thank guys for the input.

  19. TimBosby

    TimBosby Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 19, 2004
    Omaha, NE, USA
    I had the same problem with my Eden 800 and Schroeder 1212. I had the enhance past 12 o'clock... which it is not supposed to do even according to Eden. The good people on here told me what I was doing wrong and I turned the enhance off completely. That helped A LOT. Not a perfect fix but a good start.
  20. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    DFW, Texas
    I think that once you get the TFunk actually set flat (unenhance it), you'll find the 21012 has plenty of mids -- the overall balance maybe somewhat different because of the power of the low end, but you can always back the bass off a bit on the TF if you want.

    Good luck.