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Composing Music - Invention or Discovery?

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous [BG]' started by Eulogist, Dec 3, 2002.


  1. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    Well, that's a broad question there. I think it's essentially creation (even when it seems like discovery) - though I'm not about to start getting into the esoteric reasons why, that'll be a long debate on which most people won't agree with me!

    But, I agree that there are many ways in which composers compose - inspriation, 'chance' etc. etc. as Ed says. But I think ultimately they are all forms of creation.

    And in essense, I think life is creation, not discovery.
     
  2. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Supporting Member

    Neither. Most of the time, it's thievery. I'll go out on a limb and say that the public has no taste for truly creative music, they only want stuff that sounds more familiar than new. The real groundbreakers are "freakin' weirdos, that's just noise, man".

    Not trying to be inflammatory, just food for thought. :)
     
  3. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Neither and/or both.

    :D
     
  4. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
    I always thought you get songs from the tooth fairie...
     
  5. pigpen02

    pigpen02

    Mar 24, 2002
    anybody ever read kuhn's "structure of scientific discoveries?" good philosophy of science/technology read.

    essentially, kuhn shows that scientific "discoveries" are less discoveries in the conventional sense than they are invented cultural truths. paradigmatic shifts in consciousness, as proceeds any monumental scientific "discovery" is the essential creative process that human beings engage in. what's more creative/created than culture?

    so apply the reciprocal in this case, is art any more a cultural phenomenon than science? and as such, does kuhn's notion of invention apply to the arts as well as the natural sciences, for that matter to all human endeavors? i think so, truths are not "out there," nor is art; they are entirely subjective and occupy an inner universe.

    ummm...so, yeah, invention :)
     
  6. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    If one examines Sartreist existentialism, one is faced with a choice: either accept conceptual rationalism or conclude that discourse is created by the collective unconscious. However, an abundance of desublimations concerning neodialectic discourse may be found. The characteristic theme of Wilson's[3] essay on poststructural appropriation is the role of the participant as writer.

    "Class is intrinsically dead," says Sontag; however, according to la Fournier[4] , it is not so much class that is intrinsically dead, but rather the rubicon, and eventually the absurdity, of class. Thus, Derrida uses the term 'conceptual rationalism' to denote the paradigm of capitalist society. If neodialectic discourse holds, the works of Fellini are an example of self-sufficient capitalism.

    It could be said that Lacan uses the term 'prestructural narrative' to denote not situationism, but postsituationism. The subject is interpolated into a neodialectic discourse that includes reality as a reality.

    Therefore, several desublimations concerning the role of the poet as artist exist. Sartre promotes the use of conceptual rationalism to modify class.

    However, Brophy[5] suggests that we have to choose between Sontagist camp and the capitalist paradigm of consensus. Baudrillard suggests the use of Sartreist existentialism to attack the status quo.

    ---

    The preceeding was brought to you by the
    Postmodernism Generator.

    :D
     
  7. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    Depends on what I had for breakfast that day. If it was Bran Flakes, then Discovery; if Captain Crunch, Invention.
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron

    Jun 2, 2001
    Bellingham, WA
    Gershel, that website is pretty interesting. I haven't quite caught the theme. It seems like part bass, part north seattle and u-district, part a-bomb, and part diary.
     
  9. SuperDuck

    SuperDuck

    Sep 26, 2000
    Wisconsin
    Once I had a waffle for breakfast. The music invented me. :(
     
  10. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    I haven't looked around at all other than the text generators. Though I noticed the Seattle content (an out-dated Monorail initiative news flash :) ).
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron

    Jun 2, 2001
    Bellingham, WA
    Sadly enough, it was news to me, until I read how it passed by 800+ votes.
     
  12. Eulogist

    Eulogist

    Nov 3, 2002
    Raleigh, NC
    If I were you I'd be more concerned with who pissed in my Bran Flakes.

    What grade are you in anyway?



    And as to the first reply by Mr. Fuqua, of course I realize that music, in reality, is neither pure invention nor discovery. The prompt didn't say "choose" it said "discuss", which you did nicely.
     
  13. "Invention"? Wouldn't "creation" be more appropriate?

    [edited later]..oh, I see that moley beat me to the punch (sort of).
     
  14. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    Sorry, it must have been the "Composing Music: Invention or Discovery" part that had everyone harping on that particular point. Our collective bad. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Kuhn's classification doesn't take into account accidentally "discovered" knowledge such as Mandelbrot's Set and the properties of complex numbers (which includes things that go WAY beyond what Cardano or Leibniz or Euler understood). In a very real sense that knowledge arises from the logical nature of the universe rather than any human invention.

    I'd put pi into that category, too. How exactly are social factors going to influence the decimal train of a universal constant? They may affect how it is viewed, thought about and utilised, but the ratio remains the same regardless.

    I'd pay good money to see somebody culturally derive an alternative value to pi that actually works.


    Oh yeah, the music thing. I'd say that music is arranged for affect rather than discovered or invented whole, so the classification seems entirely pointless.
     
  16. Eulogist

    Eulogist

    Nov 3, 2002
    Raleigh, NC
    oh I forgot, bassplayers just follow the guitar all the time in an 1/8th note pattern and never write their own basslines let alone a complete piece of music. sorry for rubbing everyone the wrong way.
     
  17. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    No need to get your boxers in a bunch. I compose often, and have gone to the trouble to get two degrees in the subject. It's just that it's a bit unusual for a newbie to show up and "order" a bunch of forum members to discuss a topic that the thread starter himself apparently can't be bothered to discuss his own feelings about. Add to that the fact that the title of the thread asks for a discussion of an extremely complicated subject in EITHER/OR terms, and you've created a breeding ground for sarcasm.

    Maybe if you'd like to prime the pump by stating your own views on the matter, we might be able to get this thing back on track.
     
  18. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    You will discuss, you will choose between two complimentary ideas - or else!! ;)

    You will choose between Victor and Jaco!