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Countryman 85 speaker level signal chain question

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by pfschim, Apr 20, 2017.


  1. pfschim

    pfschim Just a Skeleton with a Jazz bass Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2006
    SF Bay Area
    After getting some good advice here on TB, I have been using a Countryman 85 for the past 2 years or so with good results. I usually just use it in front of my rig using the pickup option, then mic output to FOH.

    I would like to use it with my Fender Studio tube amp using the Speaker level option and I want to confirm the signal path.

    Bass => Pedal Board => Fender Studio Input => Fender Studio Speaker Out => Bergantino NV610 => speakon parallel out of Berg Nv610 => Inst jack on Countryman 85 (with switch in Speaker option) => Mic Output to FOH

    I guess I could also run the Fender Studio Speaker Out => Countryman 85 Instrument (with switch in Speaker option), then Amp => Berg NV610 and Mic Output to FOH ... should be the same thing, right ?

    any reason that using the first signal chain, not using the Amp out, would be an issue ?

    can any of you experienced Type 85 users confirm this for me.

    Thanks
     
  2. Jim Carr

    Jim Carr Dr. Jim Gold Supporting Member

    Jan 21, 2006
    Denton, TX or Kailua, HI
    fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
    Love my type-85! I know this sounds lame, but before I would do either one, I'd call Countryman.

    Countryman Associates, Inc.
    195 Constitution Drive
    Menlo Park, CA 94025

    Tel - 650-364-9988
    US Toll Free 1 - 800-669-1422
    US Toll Free 2 - 855-395-8899
    Fax - 650-364-2794
    Email - support@countryman.com

    8:00am - 5:00pm Pacific Time
     
  3. Passinwind

    Passinwind I know nothing. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Dec 3, 2003
    Columbia River Gorge, WA.
    Owner/Designer &Toaster Tech Passinwind Electronics
    Personally, I'd prefer the first chain, for the sake of keeping the high power connections as minimalistic as possible. Why add two additional 1/4" jacks between the amp and cab? Or_wink.
     
  4. two fingers

    two fingers Opinionated blowhard. But not mad about it. Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 7, 2005
    Eastern NC USA
    When I did it with a V4 I just ran from the head to the 85 and from the 85 to the speaker.
     
    NKBassman likes this.
  5. pfschim

    pfschim Just a Skeleton with a Jazz bass Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2006
    SF Bay Area
    That's the way the Countryman manual more or less shows it.
     
    Jim Carr likes this.
  6. pfschim

    pfschim Just a Skeleton with a Jazz bass Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2006
    SF Bay Area
    I agree, seems like a nice simple way to do it, and keeps the number of failure points (1/4" cables) down.
    The only thing I'm not sure of is whether it matters that I am not using the Amp thru circuit in the first config.
     
  7. Passinwind

    Passinwind I know nothing. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Dec 3, 2003
    Columbia River Gorge, WA.
    Owner/Designer &Toaster Tech Passinwind Electronics
    Pretty sure it's just a simple parallel connection like almost every DI I can think of, in which case it wouldn't matter a bit.
     
  8. pfschim

    pfschim Just a Skeleton with a Jazz bass Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2006
    SF Bay Area
    ok, cool. I did call them to check, still waiting on an "official" answer.
    I'm sure you are right. I recall that someone suggested the parallel out approach in another Type 85 thread.
    I will get a sound check and we have our own sound tech for this gig on Sat, so I have the liberty of trying it more than one way.
    thanks
     
    Impermanence likes this.
  9. pfschim

    pfschim Just a Skeleton with a Jazz bass Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2006
    SF Bay Area
    and Contryman confirms it will work in both configurations described in the first post
     
    Passinwind likes this.
  10. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Just beware that with the ground lift switch in the connect position, when used with an amp that contains a BTL output stage (like moat new class D amps) you may damage either the amp, or the mixer that the DI is connected to because the speaker jack's sleeve terminal (the one usually connected to ground) is not at ground but is driven by the amp's inverting output.
     
  11. pfschim

    pfschim Just a Skeleton with a Jazz bass Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2006
    SF Bay Area
    thanks for the warning Andy. In this case, I am planning on using the Countryman 85 with my decidedly non-Class D Fender Studio Bass head.
    I see that the 85's Output has an Open or GND option for Pin 1. The Manual suggests that you always start with the unit in the Open position, and only flip to GND if there is excess hum. Does this sound right to you ?
     
  12. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    The Fender amp you mentioned is no problem, I mention this because other folks reading this might not realize the difference.

    Yes, start with the ground lift switch open, that's my first choice.
     
    Zbysek likes this.
  13. byrdzeye

    byrdzeye

    Mar 28, 2013
    Toronto, ON
    Also be aware that the T85 is pin 3 Hot for some reason. The AES and world standard is pin 2 Hot, so just be aware of this for any phase issues. I rewired (and labeled) my T85 to pin 2 hot.
     
    blip likes this.
  14. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    In practice this is not a problem, but now if you happen to use it with another stock Countryman DI, you will have a relative polarity reversal. Hope you labeled the one you changed so that down the road it doesn't cause somebody else a problem.

    The reason why it's pin 3 hot is because when the DI was first introduced, pin 3 hot was still the (most) common standard (which varied by region). When the industry standardized on the pin 2 hot protocol, it was not uncommon to find polarity switches on some pro audio gear to more easily resolve polarity conflicts. I was working full time in the pro audio industry at this time and remember it well. Even some of my earliest products were pin 3 hot.
     
    Passinwind likes this.
  15. byrdzeye

    byrdzeye

    Mar 28, 2013
    Toronto, ON
    Yes, as noted, I did label my T85. And polarity switches should be the law. :) We discovered the pin3 hot issue while recording in a studio. The engineer (the wonderful Karen Kane) gave my bass 4 input channels mixed to 2 tracks: RE20 and AT4050 mics to one track, the T85 and balanced output of my GK MB150S to another track. The DI's were out of phase with each other. My only problem with the T85/pin3hot is that it wasn't stated ANYWHERE at the time, including Countryman's spec sheet. When I asked Carl about this at a later date, he seemed quite offended that this should even be an issue (I just walked away at that point). I still think it one of the best sounding DI's out there (and there are a lot of good DI's these days).
     
  16. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Regarding bass amps and parallel signal paths like what you describe, you must always check for relative phase since different filters and functions, pedals, etc. can easily flip the phase relative to another path. This applies to all bass amps that I know of as well.
     
    Passinwind likes this.
  17. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    In this day and age, I can't see flipping phase as a big deal.
     
  18. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Agreed, most digital consoles and recording/mixing DAWs include phase reverse on all channels. In the recording world, parallel paths are much more common and recording engineers are more apt to recognize the possibility.
     
    JimmyM likes this.
  19. Chad T

    Chad T

    Feb 10, 2013
    Indiana
    I opened up a new Type 85 because I was curious what pin is what. Do you remember the wire correlation? Red was wired to pin 2 on mine. I was guessing red might be hot, but that would mean it is wired different from the way 85s normally are. Thanks.
     
  20. byrdzeye

    byrdzeye

    Mar 28, 2013
    Toronto, ON
    You have the original factory wiring. For Pin2 HOT, orange to pin 2 and red to pin 3. BE SURE TO LABEL YOUR DI if you make this mod, or add a labeled polarity switch (don't know where you would put it). Let us know what you decide.
     

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