Detailed Cab Query

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Helland, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. Helland


    Nov 11, 2007
    Waxahachie TX
    Currently my rig is a Custom Verellen MeatSmoke (200 watts and more superbass-like OD channel. Goes to 2ohm) and a Flatback Ampeg 8x10.
    It is the best sounding bass amp/cab combination I have ever played.
    But.....I play in a three-piece with the loudest drummer ever and a guitarist with a 100 JMP, Orange OR50 and 2 4x12s.....the flatback is very very inefficient. On stage, I can barely hear myself and only if the soundguy is top notch.
    I play with the Verellen dimed. And use the OD channel like a fuzz.
    Let's pretend that money is not an object (I can save, sell other gear, etc)
    Also I have a Marshall 1982B with Emi 2512s. Sounds really "Lemmy" but as expected doesn't have the lows I want. But would be happy to pair with a solid bass cab. (4 or 16Ohms)

    Here is my list of options:
    (amp isn't going anywhere, it is definitely loud enough)
    1. A second flatback. Will this be any louder?
    2. Add any neutral cab to augment the 4x12: Fearful 15/6, Barefaced Super Twin, etc
    3. One cab to rule them all: Berg NV610 or NV215, Greenboy Dually, custom cab or your advice.

    I prefer to go lightweight. I'm 40 with a bad back. No tweeters.

    Happy to hear ideas. Thanks in advance.
  2. Plutonium244

    Plutonium244 Supporting Member

    Mar 29, 2015
    I'd vote to pick up the BF Big Twin. I don't think you could go wrong with that. I think that would satisfy both points 2 and 3 -- (neutral cab to augment or one cab to rule them all).

    You may also want to pick up an amp that has more than 200 watts, or is more efficient with those watts, if your band is really that loud and an 8x10 isn't cutting it. Normally I'd say more cabs is your if lack of volume is the issue, but really, if an 8x10 isn't cutting it then I'd look to to the power side.

    Final thought-- 2 BF Big Baby II's instead of Super Twin. 2 BB2's will run at 4 ohm load. I very seriously doubt you would not have enough volume form that-- plus it's modular.

    Just my 2 cents. I am probably completely wrong. According to my wife, I usually am.
  3. 1. 3db louder
    2. I wouldnt combine any of those with your current cab.
    3. I would go with two Duallies loaded with the 3015's.
  4. rufus.K

    rufus.K Supporting Member

    Oct 18, 2015
    If you've got a bad back, adding another 8x10 isn't the answer
  5. Coolhandjjl

    Coolhandjjl Supporting Member

    Oct 13, 2010
    All I can say is I hope to god you wear hearing protection. Seriously dude....
    smogg, GregC, McFarlin and 7 others like this.
  6. two fingers

    two fingers Opinionated blowhard. But not mad about it. Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 7, 2005
    Eastern NC USA
    Do you guys use monitors.... like stage wedges? If so, get a loud budget monitor (like a TRY from Carvin or something similar). And have the sound guy throw it in your face from a different angle. You'll get a lot more coverage from a totally different spot on stage in my experience. I have played in every kind of band you can think of in all kinds of acoustics hell. My favorite shows are the ones where I have a great wedge for bass to augment my stage rig. Especially if you sing and need a good monitor anyway it will it you in the face while you are at the mic.

    But, yeah, try to borrow or rent a really good monitor for your next gig and you'll see/hear what I'm talking about. Then you can back right up to your rig of some songs and let the bass just wrap around you. And you'll have a 2nd spot on stage where you'll have bass in your face.

    Another thing to try is cross staging your rig. There's no rule that say it has to be in the back facing forward. If you are stage left, put it to the left facing in. That way it can usually be a lot closer to you. Pmus, you'll have your rig in one ear, and the rest of the stage in the other ear.

    Trying to fill a stage with volume to compete with that kind of (utterly ridiculous in my view) guitar setup is a lost cause. You would need your own trailer worth of reasonably priced gear....or thousands of dollars worth of efficient and lightweight gear. Plus, you would be making a bad situation worse.

    As for a "good sound man" there is no sukiyaki hinges for that situation. I run sound as well. If I had to run sound for a band with that kind of guitar rig I would inform everyone upfront that I will be doing my best to try to fight the guitar player all night to blend a room against about 500% too much guitar volume. The whole point of a stage rig is simply to allow you..... about three feet away.... to hear your rig. It is not to fill the room. That's what the PA is for.

    8 12s for one guitar player. Just silly. They don't even do that at stadiums.
    lomo, hintz, Downunderwonder and 2 others like this.
  7. SVT head.
    I know, you won't do that.
    Bluzeman90 likes this.
  8. rufus.K

    rufus.K Supporting Member

    Oct 18, 2015
    If there is "the loudest drummer ever", 2 @ 4x10 guitar cabs, and an 8x10 bass can, and it's not loud enough, the SPL in the room must be hideous. Are you playing bars and small clubs?
  9. samson3382


    Apr 26, 2009
    Boise, Idaho
    Guitarist has about 7 too many 12s.
  10. Jim Carr

    Jim Carr Dr. Jim

    Jan 21, 2006
    Denton, TX or Kailua, HI
    fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
    If you want lows, you don't want a second flatback. I like the two Dualies idea, or a pair of 1212/6 cabs. Would give modularity plus killer volume, lows, and mids—and no tweeters.

    200 watts into 4 or two ohms? hmmm....
    Doug Parent and hintz like this.
  11. Coolhandjjl

    Coolhandjjl Supporting Member

    Oct 13, 2010
    A 200 or 300 watt tube head only begins to fit the bill when coupled with a multi-driver cab like the fridge. All things being equal, eight drivers compared to one driver is a theoretical +9dB (but all things are never equal).

    In your case, it ain't fittin' the bill at all. You could rent or borrow a new SVT/fridge and see if it changes things to your liking. Pairing with another flatback will only add more beaming and combing, not worth the hassle of looking for another one. And using a pair of new fridges will have the same problems.

    So if the SVT/fridge doesn't cut it, you will need to look at high wattage ss power amp/s, a tube pre-amp, and a stack of high SPL cabs like fEARfuls, FEARLESS, or Dually models. A pair of any of these Greenboy cabs, each with dual drivers, will give you four drivers at 2 ohms. And stack them vertically with respect to driver alignment.

    If you get the cabs figured out, and are close to what you need SPL-wise, but are simply locked into the Meatsmoke head, perhaps Verellen could make you a tube slave head to power a second cab.

    Whatever you do, you're getting into big money territory now. One suggestion before you bankrupt yourself is to consult with a PA guy. The good ones really know their stuff and may have other recommendations. Perhaps you are sending too much low frequency signal through the chain and simply need to back off on the bass/low tone control, or maybe just need a good HPF. See if your cab placement on stage is okay with regard to boundary cancellation. Have your cab checked to see if all drivers are doing their job, even consider having Verellen inspect your head.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
    Jim Carr likes this.
  12. rufus.K

    rufus.K Supporting Member

    Oct 18, 2015
    Try to discreetly slip a hpf in the guitarists chain to leave you some bandwidth
    JackANSI and mbelue like this.
  13. mbelue

    mbelue Supporting Member

    Dec 11, 2010
    FDeck HPF-pre3 rolled all the way up is a curious idea. Wonder how much louder the guitar would get....
  14. Helland


    Nov 11, 2007
    Waxahachie TX
    I like a lot of these ideas.
    The Flatback 8x10 has the original alnico speakers that are just not that efficient. Cab is only 240 watts and seems to act like a choke. It is isn't anything like the newer AV cabs. Far quieter and, arguably, better sounding. (It will remain in the stable for recording)

    I'm probably going to try the Dually. And if it goes as hoped I'll buy another. Or if it doesn't work, just take up the flute.

    The amp is 200 watts so I can push the output section. It's just the sound I like. I'm confident in it being enough. I've had SVT, 370, OR200B, Sunn Coliseum PA (Tube) and more; this amp is as loud as most except the SVT. Which I could never get cooking.

    For coolhandjjl, I do wear hearing protection. I've been playing in loud bands for twenty years. So I've lost some but no real damage.
  15. Helland


    Nov 11, 2007
    Waxahachie TX
  16. Helland


    Nov 11, 2007
    Waxahachie TX
    I've read that the Faitals are more like the EVM15L which I love dearly. Is your suggestion based on loudness or some other reason?
  17. Coolhandjjl

    Coolhandjjl Supporting Member

    Oct 13, 2010
    Sounds like you have some good ideas on what to do then.
  18. sensitivity.
    Sartori and friendlybass like this.
  19. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    DFW, Texas
    monsterthompson and hintz like this.
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