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Diggler would've been put away for life.

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by syciprider, Jun 9, 2007.


  1. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    With that kind of argument you should ask for a nuclear bomb, god knows when North Korea will target your home
     
  2. Cambass

    Cambass

    Jan 25, 2001
    Australia
    I can't speak for others but growing up in a country similar to Britain in regards to guns I can definently say that wasn't the case, in fact I'm sure people in the U.S. and non pro-gun countries are raised similar: that guns are potentially very dangerous weapons. It's just that the culture and availability is different.
     
  3. Diggler

    Diggler

    Mar 3, 2005
    Western PA
    You could argue that, but the ability of defense does not exist if there is a large discrepancy between the two sides. I mean, you could strip someone naked in grizzly bear country and say you didn't leave them defenseless because they had their hands and teeth to defend themselves; but there is such a discrepancy between the natural human and the grizzly that the person is, in reality, disarmed against the threat.

    Traditionally, the term 'arms' has been interpreted as those weapons that would normally be carried and used by an individual in a military conflict.
     
  4. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    No, we weren't, yet you manage to prove it to us everyday :)
     
  5. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    I can accept that in the US the right to bear arms is a legal right. I have no problem with that. I'm also sure that if enough people here in the UK wanted to make it a right, then that could happen. If it was the number one issue for the electorate here, some party would be buying votes by offering to do it. The fact is, most people here simply don't want it. The interesting thing is - why not?

    I guess it's something to do with an innate, unspoken understanding that granting rights to individuals often incurs a cost that must be borne by society. It seems a lot of people in various countries, including the UK, don't think that this particular right is worth the associated cost to society. In the US, it seems the majority disagree. Neither side is right or wrong and neither leads to laws which are "stupid" if those laws reflect the wishes of the people.

    We can discuss the relative merits of each case as long as we like. But it would be nice to remember the bit about neither side being right or wrong, wouldn't it?
     
  6. Nikoubis

    Nikoubis

    May 3, 2007
    Athens, Greece
    And you were raised believing that anyone who tries to take your guns away should be shot with those very guns. Is anyone absolutely right or absolutely wrong? Nope, but this whole difference in how we were raised generates this kind of fun and pointless threads. Morf replied too, so I consider this thread a success. :D

    EDIT: Semi-ninja'd by bassybill
     
  7. Marlat

    Marlat

    Sep 17, 2002
    London UK
    But the discrepancy of power argument further muddies the point and is also not helped by the grisly bear comparison. I have never heard of fundamental humans rights having been applied vis a vis another species. Ie, I have never seen any philsophical school of thought which requires that a grizzly bear accept that a human has a right to life. The rights are only applied in relation to other persons. In which case, the point goes away - one person may have a right to defend himself against harm from another. However, the second amendment doesn't say that. It merely provides that a person may bear arms. I stand by what I have said earlier, it lacks all the characteristics of a fundamental human right and I have never seen it recognised as one by any philosophical body of authority.

    I am not saying its not a fundamental entrenched right in the US. It surely is, but just that its a right conferred by a group of men in a document and not something that is "universally" accepted by humans as being a fundamental or basic human right.
     
  8. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    Yea, geezer and diggler pulled me into it as usual ;)
     
  9. Nikoubis

    Nikoubis

    May 3, 2007
    Athens, Greece
    All this thread needs now to take off is somebody mentioning global warming...






    :ninja:






    Or Maki chiming in... :p
     
  10. Diggler

    Diggler

    Mar 3, 2005
    Western PA
    Nah... cigarette ban threads are much more fun.
     
  11. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Inactive

    Jan 29, 2007
    Northern New Jersey
    Endorsing Artist: Red Zone Effects
    Actually, I left out an important component:

    Legal guns are used in very few murders; legal guns are used just as infrequently in cases of self-defense; illegal guns are used in the majority of violent gun-related crime.

    When all of these are lumped together, creating an apparent link between legally and illegally held guns, it gives a misimpression regarding the misuse of legally-held guns. But, the gun banners are very happy to perpetuate the false idea that legal guns present a danger to people at large.

    Legal guns held by law-abiding citizens are far less dangerous than illegal guns held by criminals. Yet, making laws that ban guns does nothing to take guns out of criminals' hands. Such laws do, however, leave law-abiding citizens defenseless.

    This is why I think such laws are "stupid." Why punish those who willingly comply with the law, when it's the criminals -who do not comply - that are the problem in the first place?









    Oh, and I should have mentioned -- Cigarette smoke causes global warming! ;) :p
     
  12. Aaron Saunders

    Aaron Saunders

    Apr 27, 2002
    Ontario
    Soulgeezer, but doesn't the basic logic follow that if guns aren't available in the country, it's a lot more difficult to obtain them illegally as well?

    I mean, the people selling these guns got them had to get them somewhere. They didn't just come out of the back of another truck, right? Most cases, someone probably stole it from a house during a B&E when the gun was A. easily accessible B. visible C. there are several of them around.

    No legal guns = very difficult to acquire them illegally as well. Not saying this is a solution for the US's problem with gun violence (you never know, though) but it's logic that the UK, and to a lesser extent, Canada, have found very useful.

    PS: I think Mark makes a very, very interesting point.

    Also, with all due respect Pacman, most of the people bearing arms in the US aren't trained well as you are ;).
     
  13. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Inactive

    Jan 29, 2007
    Northern New Jersey
    Endorsing Artist: Red Zone Effects
    I disagree that one necessarily follows the other. Like I said, criminals don't give a rat's petootie about the law. Just as drugs are illegal yet pervasive, it seems to me that illegal guns would be the same.

    If the criminals want the guns, they're going to get them one way or another. And, if there's money to be made, then, yes, I think illegal guns will come in on the back of black marketeers' trucks.

    Saying that disarming law-abiliding citizens will have an effect on the availability of guns to criminals is, I believe, a tenuous argument at best. Most evidence that I have seen (and which has been quoted at length in other threads) indicates that as gun ownership increases, crime decreases.

    An armed society is a polite society, as they say.
     
  14. Aaron Saunders

    Aaron Saunders

    Apr 27, 2002
    Ontario
    Considering the entire world's perspective on the US I'd tend to disagree with that one ;).

    I agree that disarming the citizenry of the US is not the answer at this point, what with the flood of illegal arms being so easily available in the US.

    Scenes in the movies where you have a bunch of foreign terrorists coming in and selling guns out of the back of the truck are just that. "they're going to get them one way or another" -- It would be significantly more difficult to attain them if it weren't so easy to steal them though, don't you think? Doing a B&E is not hard, and when you walk into the bedroom and someone has a .44 in their bedside table drawer (just in case of robbers) that same .44 is going to be the one holding up the liquor store clerk and committing violent crime. The worst of results come out of the best of intentions, and I think it's not only possible but quite likely a lot of the illegally owned handguns in the US are stolen from law-abiding citizens who had no intention of ever letting it happen.
     
  15. Bob Lee (QSC)

    Bob Lee (QSC) In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio!

    Jul 3, 2001
    Santa Ana, Calif.
    Former Technical Communications Developer, QSC Audio
    Except in Somalia, Iraq, Nazi-era Germany, et al. ;)

    A polite society, whether armed or not, is a polite society. An armed society bent on destroying others is a menace.
     
  16. syciprider

    syciprider Inactive

    May 27, 2005
    Inland Empire

    Our RKBA does not need acceptance of any philosophical bodies. Acceptance by our neighbors is not a condition for our freedoms. It was NOT conferred by a body of men. It, along with a few other rights that comprise our BoR, were recognized by those men as inalienable.
     
  17. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    Point is, countries with gun control dont have as big a crime rate, even proportionally, to those where guns are legal.

    Now maybe making guns illegal in the US wouldn't change a thing, in a fact I believe it would make things worse, but dont apply your american logic to the rest of the world, because you've been shown countless times it just doesn't apply :)
     
  18. Marlat

    Marlat

    Sep 17, 2002
    London UK
    I don't see how this is relevant to the thread of discussion in which my response was addressed to which effectively claimed it was a "basic right" outside of the US.

    And the difference between "conferred by a body of men" and "recognised by a body of men" is?

    But, if you are really interested in this discussion, consider this: If, as you say, the RTBA was recognised by a body of men as an inalienable right, and its not an arbitary right thought up by those men at the time - then there should be a reasonable body of text / discussion by other people around that time or previously concerning the existing of this inalienable right and the nature of it. That is the nature of almost all rights based philsophies - they have been discussed by people who agree and disagree with them.

    So, if its not arbitrary, where is all this documentary evidence of people outside of the drafters of the BOR considering this to be a basic human right before the drafters thought of it?
     
  19. When Hitler banned cigarettes it brought on global warming because of the nervous jitters of nicotine withdraw. Thus the next ban was guns so that the sweaty, jittery, nicotine addicts could be controlled.

    Rights are not given by governments, they can only be taken.
     
  20. middy

    middy

    Mar 14, 2007
    Texas
    The US Constitution doesn't grant any rights to the people, it merely outlines the limited powers of the federal government. All powers not given to the government are held by the people, something that seems hard for people from other cultures to grasp.

    The inalienable rights recognized by the Bill of Rights are listed merely as a reaffirmation of those liberties the drafters of our Constitution considered most indispensable to the maintenance of a free republic.
     
  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
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