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Diggler would've been put away for life.

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by syciprider, Jun 9, 2007.


  1. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    So if someone takes away one of your rights, do you no longer have that right? Or do you still have the right, even though it's been taken away?

    And if you still have it, how can it have been taken away?

    What I mean is, if you live someone where free speech is banned, do you have a right to free speech? Or not?

    Go round in circles thinking about this for long enough and the true nature of rights (as conventions, rather than absolutes) becomes apparent. The only rights you REALLY have are the ones your society allows you.

    So arguing about whether any of them is actually a genuine right or not is pretty much meaningless, really.
     
  2. syciprider

    syciprider Inactive

    May 27, 2005
    Inland Empire
    Read our Federalist papers. Or you can reference your own Bill of Rights as restored by William of Orange after James II abdicated in the "Glorious Revolution". Those rights were extended us by the Crown (because we were subjects back then). We got the idea from you. Of course, you folks lost yours because they were merely granted and not yours by default.

    Some notable folks from our history also had a few things to say:

    "The advantage of being armed . . . the Americans possess over the people of all other nations . . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several Kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
    James Madison

    "The great object is that every man be armed . . . Everyone who is able may have a gun."

    Patrick Henry

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."

    Richard Henry Lee

    The framers of the US Constitution did not just pull those rights out of their behinds. The experience of living under the Empire was still fresh and they took it upon themselves to protect the new free people from tyranny by ensuring that our organic law preserved our inalienable rights.


    And in Rwanda, the common folk are not allowed to have guns. What was that about the crime rate again?

    US interference worked real well for France in the 40s.
     
  3. syciprider

    syciprider Inactive

    May 27, 2005
    Inland Empire
    And this is why Europe and the US will not understand each other. We view rights differently.
     
  4. syciprider

    syciprider Inactive

    May 27, 2005
    Inland Empire
    Conferred means it was given to us by some generous folks. Recognised means the existence is acknowledged and respected. Clear nuff?
     
  5. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    Oh, I think I do understand. And I don't think it's a Europe/US difference. There's lots of people in Europe who believe in rights as "real things" because they fail to see that they exist only as long as you're allowed them. They're no good to you if you're not.

    I should add, by the way, that in my view the fragile nature of our rights makes it all the more important to affirm them and defend them when they're eroded. :)
     
  6. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    Fixed. :mad:
     
  7. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Inactive

    Jan 29, 2007
    Northern New Jersey
    Endorsing Artist: Red Zone Effects
    If rights are not "real things," then we should all just kill ourselves now, because there's no reason to live if you only do so at the whim of another.
     
  8. Now, as I see it, you don't understand. Rights, by their very nature, are not fragile.
     
  9. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    Tell that to the countless sorry people on this planet who don't have any. I'm sure it will be a great comfort to them.
     
  10. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    You're correct and I should clarify.

    Rights are, of course, "real things" as long as they are maintained and protected. The fact that they can disappear so easily is something that it is wise to be aware of.
     
  11. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Inactive

    Jan 29, 2007
    Northern New Jersey
    Endorsing Artist: Red Zone Effects
    See, now that's just wrong. And, I'm not kidding when I say that line of thinking is what leads to the illegal immigration problems in so many countries.

    People have the right and the obligation to overthrow a government that oppresses them. Look at the US, the USSR, France (!), etc., etc. If people choose to run away, they have voluntarily given up that right and do nothing to correct the injustice in the place they've left behind.

    Rights exist whether they are exercised or not. It doesn't mean they aren't real, though.
     
  12. middy

    middy

    Mar 14, 2007
    Texas
    How are you going to defend them when you've been disarmed? :confused:
     
  13. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    The Rwanda crime rate has dropped significantly since the adoption of the gun control law :)

    As for you US interference comment, as usual, when someone throws out an argument you can't reply to, you take a cheap shot on a subject that is completely off topic. But hey, who can blame you? Ignorance can only take you so far :)
     
  14. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Inactive

    Jan 29, 2007
    Northern New Jersey
    Endorsing Artist: Red Zone Effects
    The rights don't disappear. But, governments can create such an atmosphere of fear that people are afraid to exercise them. And, I agree, eternal vigilance in the protection of rights is both a necessity and an obligation.
     
  15. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    The rights dont dissapear because they've never been there in the first place. Alot of these people have lacked many of those fundamental rights, from the day they were born to the day they die.
     
  16. middy

    middy

    Mar 14, 2007
    Texas
    :eek:

    You mean, if you don't count all the hundreds of thousands of people hacked apart with machetes?

    :confused:
     
  17. The "rights" are not gone. There are oppressive governments who would suppress those rights and as Geezer pointed out, folks can either revolt or run away. But rights cannot just disappear. Contrary to socialist thinking.

    Like that there. Rights are not a "treat" handed out by elitist government officials. Those are correctly called privileges and, as such, may be revoked.
     
  18. BassyBill

    BassyBill The smooth moderator... Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 12, 2005
    West Midlands UK
    Well, we've had some form of democracy here for nearly 800 years. I don't think I'll be needing a gun to protect myself from marauding government troops for a while yet. ;)
     
  19. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    show me some proof?
     
  20. morf

    morf Inactive

    Feb 17, 2006
    :rollno: Pick up your gun and go fight for their rights then, if thats what you believe.


    I can't believe how naive some people are.
     
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    Primary TB Assistant

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