Distortion & Wah: A Before or After Story

Discussion in 'Effects [BG]' started by MatticusMania, Aug 7, 2013.


  1. Distortion First

    59 vote(s)
    41.3%
  2. Wah First

    34 vote(s)
    23.8%
  3. Doesnt Matter

    12 vote(s)
    8.4%
  4. Carrots First. CARROTS ALWAYS COME FIRST!

    38 vote(s)
    26.6%
  1. MatticusMania

    MatticusMania LANA! HE REMEMBERS ME!

    Sep 10, 2008
    Pomona, SoCal
    Im redoing my signal chain and Im not sure if I want my distortion (Big Muff) to be placed before or after my Wah pedal (Morley Dual Bass Wah).
    I was wondering if anyone could explain the pros & cons of either placement and what the preference of other bass players may be. My new pedalboard and I would greatly appreciate your input! Cheers!
     
  2. icecycle66

    icecycle66

    Feb 4, 2009
    Arizona
    This might seem obvious but consider this:

    Which effect do you want to act on the other?
    If you put wah after distortion, then the distortion will be wahed.
    If you put wah before distortion, then the wah will be distorted.

    Wah after distortion usually seems to be a more pronounced effect. (Think Cliff Burton type of wah sound)
    Distortion after wah is usually a more consistent sounding effect.

    I chose distortion first because that's how I usually play it. however, I also can't ever decide which I like better, so I have my set up as distortion > wah > distortion.
     
  3. Ronbassman

    Ronbassman

    Jun 1, 2011
    This.
    By the way, you want carrots to be the last thing on your signal. It's always better to carrotize the distortion and the wah, than wah or distort the carrots. :cool:
     
  4. gregmon79

    gregmon79 I did it for the muff... Supporting Member

    Dec 20, 2012
    Chicago IL
    I voted dist/OD before my wah. Thats how I like it. It causes the dist to be sweepable. If I put the wah before my dist, then I cant get a good sweep range on the dist.
     
  5. MatticusMania

    MatticusMania LANA! HE REMEMBERS ME!

    Sep 10, 2008
    Pomona, SoCal
    I was going to go that route, but I only have room for one of my dirt pedals. Unless I cut something else out... hmm.
     
  6. Drunk Heffalump

    Drunk Heffalump Tone that I have. Skill? Oh, that? Well....

    Feb 28, 2009
    Great White North
    Additionally some processors (such as EQs and reverbs) can go in different places in the chain, depending on the desired effect. And in one very famous example, the debate is still raging about whether the wah-wah goes before or after the distortion (Hendrix put his before, though conventional wisdom says the wah should follow).



    Now, you might be thinking, "Gee I know in which order the basic pedals should go, but I guess I don't really know why."



    Before we discuss which categories of effects go where they do in the chain, take this pop quiz (I hear you groan) to determine your effect-ordering mettle. Order the effects below from 1 to 10, with 1 being the first effect the guitar plugs into, and 10 being the effect whose output goes into the amp. Place letters next to the numbered slots to indicate which effect goes the proper order. No text-messaging among yourselves for hints.



    1. __ A. EQ
    2. __ B. Distortion
    3. __ C. Chorus/Flanger
    4. __ D. Noise Gate
    5. __ E. Digital Reverb
    6. __ F. Volume Pedal
    7. __ G. Preamp
    8. __ H. Compressor
    9. __ I. Delay
    10.__ J. Wah-wah Pedal



    Here are the answers, showing the "correct" order of the 10 effects above: 1) G, Preamp; 2) H, Compressor; 3) B, Distortion; 4) J, Wah-wah pedal; 5) C, Chorus/Flanger; 6) I, Delay; 7) A, EQ; 8) D, Noise Gate; 9) F, Volume Pedal; 10) E, Digital Reverb.



    Don't deduct any points if you had the delay before the chorus/flanger; that one's a toss-up. Also acceptable is to put the EQ just after the compressor. And really, the EQ in any signal chain is sort of a "free space," so it can go almost anywhere.



    If you got more than four effects out of order, or if you realized in taking this quiz that you just got lucky with the placement, it may help to break the above effects into categories and then explore why certain categories come before others in a signal chain. Roughly speaking, I name the categories as follows, in the order that the guitar signal encounters them:







    Signal Conditioners
    Time-Based Effects
    Ambient Processors
    Other Effects



    Here's what's included in each main category:



    Signal Conditioners. These include all gain-based and EQ-based effects. Conditioners don't set out to change the basic nature of a sound, except to increase the gain, either in the signal's entirety (preamps) or selectively (by frequency band, as in an EQ).



    Preamps listen to the signal and boost it as faithfully as possible with as little coloring as possible—unless in the process of preamping the tone is changed naturally (as happens when, say, tube-based preamps are run hot). Usually preamps have EQ and other controls, preamps go first in the chain so they can receive a signal with the highest possible integrity, even if their purpose is to create a distorted sound.



    Compressors reduce the dynamic range of a signal by attenuating levels that exceed a certain, defined point (called threshold). Guitarists often use compressors to increase sustain, but that's sort of an "overuse" of the effect—though it sounds great!



    The primary design of a compressor is to deliver a consistent, predictable level without significantly altering the signal's tone. But with heavy compression, some high-frequency content is lost, which you can put back in with EQ (either on the compressor itself or with an outboard effect).



    Distortion. It may be hard to imagine your Blues Driver (shown in Fig. 1) as a "mere signal conditioner," because its effect is so dramatic. However, technically, its influence is limited to the gain stage of the signal. In other words, it doesn't set out to change the signal, it just pushes its gain past the breaking point of the circuitry's ability to reproduce it faithfully.



    EQ, also known as equalizers, can also be though of as gain boosters, except that they apply their boosting to only a portion of the signal, defined by frequency or frequency range.



    Graphic EQs are used for broad-band applications, while parametrics can be dialed in to very specific ranges (usually defined by parts of an octave), and even to a single frequency. Except in "severe" cases, like a wah-wah pedal and a phase shifter, EQs don't dramatically change a signal's overall sound, and are often used fore corrective measures (to rectify a frequency-reproducing deficiency in another component).



    Wah-Wah pedals are active EQ circuits whose range is varied by means of a foot pedal. They apply a resonant-frequency peak that sweeps through the high-mid region (around 500 Hz—2 kHz), emulating somewhat the sound of a human voice.



    Fig. 1: The Blues Driver is a distortion device, and therefore goes right after a preamp or a compressor.



    You can use a wah many ways: as a slowly opening and closing filter over a soaring lead solo; as the wacka-wacka disco effect popularized in the '70s accomplished by rocking the pedal while strumming muted strings; as a gently undulating modulation effect; or as a filter, with the treadle held in a fixed position. An envelope-followed filter (called "envelope filter" or "envelope follower" and shown in Fig. 2) is an electronic touch-sensitive wah (play soft and it goes wohl, play hard and it goes whack), and so should go in place of or adjacent to the wah.



    Fig. 2: This FX 25B from DOD is an envelope filter, or electronic wah, and should be treated as a wah-wah pedal in terms of placement.



    Wahs would typically go after gain boosters, but Jimi Hendrix put his first, so there's a classic example of someone whose music wasn't hurt by not following the rules. A wah is one example of an effect that some recording guitarists will use on a "re-amped'' or previously recorded clean track. (For more on re-amping, check out Craig Anderton's in-depth article "Re-Amping Basics for Guitar.")



    Tip: If you're recording—and your foot-rockin' chops are not up to snuff—consider recording a track of un-wahed guitar, then play back the track through the wah (focusing your efforts on just the wah—you can even use your hands) and record onto a new track.




    MODULATION AND TIME-BASED EFFECTS

    A surprising amount of sonic variety comes from effects that alter a signal using time distortion. Time-based effects, by definition, combine the original signal with a time-manipulated version, and that's why these effects work well in an amp's parallel loop or from a mixer's aux send jack.



    You always want a portion of the original signal in the equation. Time-based effects take the original signal, sample it (through digital recording), stagger it in time, and combine it somehow with the original. You might not think of the swimmy chorus sound as being related to loop recording a la Brian May, but they're two ends of the same spectrum.



    Choruses/Flangers are interchangeable as far as effect-ordering. You probably wouldn't use them both at the same time in orthodox situations. Chorus is the more subtle of the two effects, usually consisting of a delay of 1-50 milliseconds, and is often used in stereo. Flangers, like the one shown in Fig. 3, are more dramatic, whooshy and vintage sounding. Put these after signal conditioners but before the delay and reverb.



    Fig. 3: Flangers and choruses are time-based effects and go after gain-based effects.





    Pitch Shifters are sometimes referred to generically as "harmonizers," but that's actually a trademark name under Eventide's control. A pitch shifter actually takes the second signal and defuses it slightly in increments of cents (hundredths of a semitone). Mild pitch shift settings yield chorus-like effects; drastic ones come in the form of musical intervals, like 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths. Intelligent pitch shifters will alter an interval to fit a certain key or scale, so you can play in harmony with yourself (like the twin-guitar leads of classic southern rock bands).



    Delay. With the advent of digital reverb, it's important to distinguish delay as a rather artificial effect compared to the more natural-sounding echo that reverb produces. Delay is a discrete, or separate, repeat of the original signal at a specified interval (in milliseconds) after the original. Delay yields a spacious sound when used with times higher than 100 milliseconds or so. Settings of about 125 and above produce "slapback," a popular rockabilly effect, and longer times (around 300 ms) yield a soaring, cavernous sound.



    Also included on a delay unit are Feedback (how many times the effected signal is fed into the delay channel), Modulation (a filter sweep that adds a chorus-like sound), and, on a stereo delay, panning controls for a "ping-pong" effect. A delay goes at the very end of the chain, just before the reverb, unless it's substituting for a reverb, in which case it goes last.




    AMBIENT PROCESSORS: REVERB AND DELAY

    When used conventionally, reverb and delay (which serves double-duty as a time-based effect, described in the previous section) act as ambient effects, and so are placed at the very end of the chain. (Some pedals, like the RV-3 in Fig. 4, combine delay and reverb.) The reasoning is that this is the most natural way we hear sound-in an environment which these effects are simulating. It doesn't make as much sense to add swirly chorus onto the tail of a long reverb as it does to add reverb to a chorused sound. If special effects are required, though—notably a rhythmic repeat in the delay or a gated reverb a la the Phil Collins snare sound—these units can be placed further up the chain.



    Fig. 4: This RV-3 combines delay and reverb, and so should be used as an ambient effect—going after the modulation effects.




    Tip: If you're using reverb as a studio sideman, you must clear it with the recording engineer, in case he has his own plans for ambient treatment.



    If you are recording yourself, try to add reverb at the midtown stage, as you may change your mind about the ambient treatment once all the instruments are in place in the mix. "Printing," or recording, with effects can't be undone once it's on tape.



    When recording, guitarists like to hear reverb to get the right feel, and most mixers allow you to "monitor" effects without printing them, which means you hear them through the headphones or speakers, but they don't go to tape. If you have only one reverb unit but need to use two reverb programs simultaneously (e.g., small room on rhythm guitar, large hall on lead solo), you may have to print with effects when tracking.

    OTHER EFFECTS

    There are other effects that may not fall neatly into one of the above categories, but we can at least place them in the chain. A phase shifter sounds a lot like a flanger, but is really more of an EQ-based effect than a time-based one. Nevertheless, it should go where flangers, choruses, and pitch shifters go—after signal conditioners and true EQ-based effects.



    Octavers, or octave dividers (shown in Fig. 5), behave like doublers, except that the doubled signal is usually one or two (or both at once) octaves up or down.



    An octave effect can be achieved with a pitch shifter, so put your octaver in the vicinity of other time-based effects. Exciters, such as the BBE Sonic Stomp, are EQ-based devices that are intended to sparkle up an entire sound, so put those at the end (but before the reverb to preserve the natural EQ roll-off effect programmed into a reverb's algorithm).



    Fig. 5: An octave divider was a favorite effect of Jimi Hendrix. It's a popular way to fatten up single-line solo passages.



    Tip: If you use heavy effects, though, exciters can sometimes sound too "steely" if placed after the time-based effects, because they interact with the chorused frequencies rather than the raw signal's. If that's the case move your exciter up front.



    Noise Gates (or a "noise suppressor," as the unit in Fig. 6 is called) are designed to shut down the audio path until a certain level is achieved. This keeps noisy guitars from buzzing through quiet or silent passages. These typically go just before the reverb, because you want your guitar signal to cut off while the last ring-out of the reverb is still trailing away. Placing the noise gate after the reverb might cause an unnatural shoop sound as the gate slams the audio path shut during the reverb tail. But again, you could use this unorthodox sound to your advantage. Phil Collins did it in the '80s with his snare sound, and rap and hip-hop used it a generation later.



    Fig. 6: A noise gate, or noise suppressor, should come just before the reverb (if you have one in your chain) so that it can cut off the guitar signal but leave the reverb tail intact for a natural sound.




    EFFECT ORDERING: TWO APPROACHES

    Figure 7 shows a typical setup of a few effects. This is an actual promotional photo of a Boss multi-effects pedalboard. Note that compressor and distortion appear first, and the time-based effects appear last. In this setup, the EQ is in the middle, which shows that an EQ can go anywhere. It's the universal effects ambassador.



    Fig. 7: This all-Boss-configured pedalboard shows gain-based, modulation, and time-based/ambient effects in the proper order. The EQ (in the middle here) can go almost anywhere in the chain.




    A more comprehensive approach to effects is shown in the schematic treatment of Fig. 8. This is also the 10 effects featured in the quiz at the beginning of this article. Often you wouldn't have two similar effects on simultaneously, but you might want to have them both available, so you can have both of them in the chain and swap their order without making a difference. Keep in mind, though, that placing all your effects inline, even when they aren't active, can degrade your signal significantly—especially with stompboxes that don't feature a hardwire bybass—so using a switcher (the employs a star network model, rather than a daisy chain, as an inline setup does) is worth investigating.



    Fig. 8: A schematic of the proper ordering of numerous effects of different types. This is the diagram of the answers to the quiz in the first part of the article. The dotted line shows that it's okay to put the wah in front of the distortion (thanks to Jimi).




    CONCLUSION

    And as Jimi Hendrix showed us, you don't always have to follow the rules. You can't hurt anything electronically, and the suggested method only tries to protect the integrity of the original signal. But try out the "right" way first, and then proceed to mix and match your effects until you achieve the desired results—which may have nothing to do with preserving the signal.


    :D
     
    comatosedragon and StayLow like this.
  7. MatticusMania

    MatticusMania LANA! HE REMEMBERS ME!

    Sep 10, 2008
    Pomona, SoCal
    Holy Moly, Heffalump! Thats a lot to take in all at once, so I'll likely be coming back to reread some of this.

    I wanted to ask another signal chain question, but I dont want to start another thread on the matter... What would you say is the optimal placing of a Line Booster?

    Here's my current signal chain:

    Active Bass > Line Booster > Distortion > Wah > Bass Synth Wah > Phaser > Chorus > Tremolo > Delay > Looper > Amp w/Built in Compressor.

    Any suggestions? At some point I'll likely be removing one of these effects and replacing it with an Octave pedal of some sort.
     
  8. darkstorm

    darkstorm

    Oct 13, 2009
    Try it both ways and see which sounds better to you. This can vary from wah and distortion effect used along with personal preferance for sound.
     
  9. it's which ever you prefer. some people put their wah at the end on the chain. it's all about what sound you like to hear and play.
     
  10. MatticusMania

    MatticusMania LANA! HE REMEMBERS ME!

    Sep 10, 2008
    Pomona, SoCal
    I get that it can work either way, Im looking for responses in the way of your own preferences for placing distortion before or after.
     
  11. danielfnj96

    danielfnj96

    Jan 29, 2012
    NJ, USA
    +1
     
  12. FretNoMore

    FretNoMore * Cooking with GAS *

    Jan 25, 2002
    The frozen north
    I know it's not the answer you want, but since you have the pedals try them both ways and trust your own ears. Who can know better than yourself what works best for you and what sounds you like?
     
  13. AaronVonRock

    AaronVonRock

    Feb 22, 2013
    Bangkok
    Good point. Not all wah and distortion pedals are the same. I put my Digitech Bass Synth Wah before my Bass Big Muff because I get less unwanted hiss and feedback that way. In addition to more hiss and feedback, I get a bit of volume reduction if the Wah comes after the Muff.

    You really have to play around and see which combination sounds best to you with the pedals you have. If I was using a different brand of pedals, I might arrange them in different order. Trial and error.
     
  14. Swimming Bird

    Swimming Bird

    Apr 18, 2006
    Wheaton MD
    Sort of. First off, it depends on the type of music you're playing/the sound you're going for. Second it depends on your rig and how reactive the carrots are to your signal as well as what sort of compression (or distortion) is going on earlier in the chain. The approach you've noted is popular with some of the post rock guys - I'm pretty sure it's the secret sauce of a Jeff Caxide-type sound. That said I've seen noisier guys like Juan Alderete put carrots between distortion and filter to great effect.

    Less talked about are the synthy players who rely on a light touch and surprisingly reactive chains. John Davis of Nerve is a prime example of a player using carrots early in the chain to great effect.

    Some jazzy guys like Steve Swallow and Jaquo whittle them down and pluck with them. I don't have that sort of chops though.

    I know this will sound overblown, but at the end of the day carrot placement is about vision. Which is why I place them in my mouth.
     
  15. mouthmw

    mouthmw

    Jul 19, 2009
    Croatia
    I prefer it stacked.

    Distortion -> Wah -> OD

    This way I get a great wah sweep with a heavier distortion (or fuzz), and my lighter OD (which I never turn off really, in this case Darkglass VMT) gives me a bit more balls to my wah by overdriving it. Sounds more seamless IMO as well, there's always a bit of crunch in that wah tone.
     
  16. MatticusMania

    MatticusMania LANA! HE REMEMBERS ME!

    Sep 10, 2008
    Pomona, SoCal
    I have tried it both ways. Im not certain which I like better, which will lead to more testing until Im sure.
    In the meantime, Im looking to see what other bassists prefer, and the pros & cons theyve encountered.
     
  17. The Celestials

    The Celestials

    Jul 1, 2013
    Delaware
    Put the Big Muff before the Wah!!!!

    NOTHING sounds as huge as that combo.

    Listen to any J Mascis wah playing i.e. "just like heaven". That is on guitar but gets similair effects.
     
  18. MatticusMania

    MatticusMania LANA! HE REMEMBERS ME!

    Sep 10, 2008
    Pomona, SoCal
    Thats what Im leaning towards, but I want to make sure its the sound I like before cutting some cable for my board. :smug:
     
  19. Dave W

    Dave W Supporting Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    White Plains
    I always put the wah first in line. I'm not a fan of distortion going into it, it's too harsh sounding.
     
  20. born2lift

    born2lift Supporting Member

    Feb 14, 2012
    Erie Michigan
    I know that this is an old thread, but I came across this video in which the guy shows you how he gets Cliff Burton's tone. In the video, he has the Big Muff going into the amp first, then the vintage Power Fuzz Morley Wah. I was thinking like most of you guys and always thought it best to have the overdrive or distortion before the wah. A couple years back, I was going through a Cliff Burton phase, And purchased a vintage Morley Power Wah and a Wren And Cuff Pickle Pie Hella Fuzz. I remember getting a tone that was damn close to Cliff's back then. About a month ago, I took out my old Morley and Hella Fuzz pedal and tried it out. I hooked it up with the Fuzz going into the Wah and then into the amp. Huh? It didn't sound anything like it used to. Once I seen this video, I remembered that it has to be the other way around, at least for the tone I was after.
     
  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
    Jun 22, 2021

Share This Page