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DIY Bass Cabinet like Shroeder 21012

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by King David, Jan 3, 2007.


  1. King David

    King David

    Dec 13, 1999
    Indiana
    I am thinking of duplicating this design. I like the idea that these could replace a whole stack with 4 drivers (2-10” 1-12” and a horn) an and a small cabinet.
    http://www.schroedercabinets.com/21012.htm
    As you can see the power handling is great. The low end frequency response is pretty good. I do play a 5 string bass.

    The downside is that these cabinets are pretty expensive, so I am wondering if I could build one that would be about as good.

    Do any of you have ideas what drivers and stuff to use?

    Also, is there much sound difference in Neodenium speakers, or is it more of a weight thing?

    I really like these cabinets because of the 2x10s for tightness, the 12 for some depth, and it is so small compared to a 2x10 and a separate 15” cab.

    Additional Links
    Regular
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Schroeder-21012-Regular-Bass-Cabinet-?sku=484868
    Light
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Schroeder-21012-Light-Bass-Cabinet-?sku=484869
     
  2. rumblinbass

    rumblinbass

    Aug 22, 2003
    Wimberley, TX
    I'm on board for this one. This isn't a typical design so I would like to know what a few of the veterans say about this.
     
  3. BassJunkie730

    BassJunkie730

    Feb 3, 2005
    Brooklyn
    Omni15 from Billfitmaurice.com

    Easily.
     
  4. RWP

    RWP

    Jul 1, 2006
    DIY bass cabinets are a great thing but this perticular cab might not be the best one to try to copy. Somehow Schroeder uses different size drivers in the box which is generally a no no. However, his design seem to really work well so he obviously knows what he is doing. IMHO The down side to trying to copy it is figuring out his exact design and driver selection. I doubt Schroeder would be willing to publish the TS parameters for his drivers. :) Without knowing all details you would be shooting in the dark.

    +1 here: Billfitmaurice.com
     
  5. King David

    King David

    Dec 13, 1999
    Indiana
    That is what I was afraid of on the driver selection. That box seems really small for the number and size of drivers in it. (not a pro mind you)
    I only have experience with a HT sealed sub. That was really easy given some direction. This would be a bit more involved. I can handle the wood cuts and stuff, but the driver selction, port size and crossover are above my head.
     
  6. RWP

    RWP

    Jul 1, 2006
    Agree. There are many sites to help with 'standard' vented enclosures, however Schroeder is anything but standard. :eyebrow:

    My next DIY will be a Bill Fitzmaurice design. They are not 'simple' either but look intriguing and you receive all the data needed for a good result.

    EDIT CORRECTION: http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/
     
  7. I have a 21012L and really like it... very different sounding from the smaller Schroeders, and it does sound like you describe... reasonably good definition from the front mounted 10's, but massive low end (given the cab size) from that baffle mounted 12.

    I'm pretty sure that Jorg uses relatively stock Eminence Neo's. I think the more mid-forward tone of the Neo's actually helps that particular box... with the Neo's being a little more mid forward and tighter in the low end. Nice cab... very similar to a goot 210/115 stack in tone.... maybe a little wide sounding for me in a way (not much growl there.. more low end thunder and very clean mids)... but it's a GREAT funk/slap cab.
     
  8. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Columbia River Gorge
    I've heard the 1210 and 21012 close up and personal courtesy of Passinwind... I hated the 1210 and I'm thinkin' the 21012 rocks. It's the extra mids to counter balance the boom that does it for me.

    There's lot's of cab's out there with multiple driver sizes in one cab. Accugroove does that, Jorg obviously, SWR Triad, Berg HT 322 ... From what I understand, Jorg is getting his drivers with a custom OEM spec.
     
  9. BassJunkie730

    BassJunkie730

    Feb 3, 2005
    Brooklyn
    (the wind whispers)

    ...omni15....omni15


    you can buy the plans and build it for cheap (about $650 less than a 21012) with little to no carpentry experience

    for a cab that weighs less but is 5" wider, 2" deeper, and 7" taller.

    it's not that bad for home grown.

    www.billfitzmaurice.com

    we're talking DIY here right, that means you're looking to save money - not time.
     
  10. This is why it always kills me when people make blanket statements about the Schroeder's having a 'mid hump' or whatever. While that is totally true with the 1210 and 1212... it is totally, utterly, completely false with the 21012 and I assume the 412 and 210212.

    That's like saying, for example, that you hate EA cabs when you've only tried a Wizzy... very different from the NL or CXL series, etc.

    I will continue to try to get the word out on the very nicely voiced IMO 21012L.... and... it's light, small, and loud:D

    Sorry for the thread derail... wish I could help you out with plans, etc... but I know nothing of DIY
     
  11. RWP

    RWP

    Jul 1, 2006
    Please don't misunderstand me, I agree, there are many companies manufacturing cabs with 10's and 15's or whatever in them, but this is DIY. And maybe the drivers are off the shelf, but that doesn't mean they will publish the TS for them let alone plans for the enclosure. Wish they would!! :)
    If anyone can find them PLEASE post the URL.
     
  12. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    The Shroeder 21012 isn't a box in a box? All the drivers are exposed to each other internally?
     

  13. All drivers are exposed internally (at least I'm pretty sure from the pictures I saw... never took mine apart). I don't know how it sounds so nice, but it sure does!
     
  14. Passinwind

    Passinwind I know nothing. Commercial User

    Dec 3, 2003
    Columbia River Gorge, WA.
    Owner/Designer &Toaster Tech Passinwind Electronics
    I've said this before: if you guys want to do knockoffs, at least follow the time-honored tradition and buy one to reverse engineer.:cool:

    You can measure T-S parameters yourself, and if you do so carefully you will get more meaningful results than reading a nominal factory spec sheet is gonna give you.
     
  15. RWP

    RWP

    Jul 1, 2006
    :D +1000
     
  16. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I think copying a Schroeder would be relatively easy but I'd feel uncomfortable about stealing Jorg's intellectual property - the cabs are pretty unusual designs that have obviously taken a fair bit of practical R&D because they do not follow the normal rules of bass cab design (both in mixing different drivers in the same air space, the driver(s) firing into restricted air space and in the unconventional porting).

    I'm currently working on a design that borrows from quite a few different sources, including the Omni cabs and the Schroeders. Like the Omni 15 it's a true 3-way cab (with 2nd order crossovers) with a 15" woofer and 8" mid (but two of them and not horn loaded), like the Omni 10 it uses a piezo tweeter array, like the Schroeder the 15" is side baffle mounted but unlike the Schroeder the 8"s are in their own sealed enclosures. It uses a conventional port (the Omni 15 and Schroeders both use a simple slot that fires into the woofer chamber so design is only possible through trial and error and I'm not a good enough carpenter to cope with that much woodwork) and through a balsa spaceframe, stressed thin panel construction, and neo drivers all round, it'll be light.

    It won't be as sensitive as the Schroeders or Omnis but it'll still come in around the 99dB mark and will be within 2dB from 70-20,000Hz - i.e. pretty damn flat! I suspect real bass response (i.e. below 100Hz) will be better than the majority of bass cabs when left flat but it won't put out like an Omni 15 (which is huge down there) or my Acmes (which have immense bottom) but because of the Kappalite 3015LF's big excursion and the reasonably large enclosure it'll respond well to bass boosting EQ without farting out (I generally end up cutting the lows on my Acmes because I tend to manage corner placement which boosts them back to flat-ish down to ~40Hz). Weight should come in at just under 50lbs and size will be 35"H x 18"D x 17.5"W (tall and skinny - all the better to hear onstage, wheel to venues, and lift through doorways).

    But it won't be cheap and it won't be an easy build...

    Alex
     
  17. CrackBass

    CrackBass

    Aug 10, 2004
    huntsville,AL
    if you want a schroeder, buy a schroeder. i have a 21012 and a 1210 and i could whip up an exact copy of each, if i wanted to. i just wouldn't feel right about it though. if you want to come up with your own design, knock yourself out, but you won't save any money. there's a reason they cost that much, you didn't see all the cabs he probably had to build and drivers he had to buy, and the people he had to pay to come up with his designs.
    on a side note his designs are not that complex as speaker building goes. you've already got the outer dimensions. an enterprising carpenter could probably get really close after reading the schroeder mega-thread, with the few clues contained therein. this would apply to most commercial bass cabs out there with the exception of euphonic audio. (something like an swr or an eden would be cake) a bill fitzmaurice cab? you wouldn't have a clue where to start. i would buy some plans from bill and make one of the omni's if you want to go with the diy route.

    in any case i do not recommend trying to blatatly copy or reverse engineer someone else's hard work. especially a fellow as nice as jorg.
     
  18. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    By the way, the power handling you see quoted for commercial bass cabs is miles from reality. They quote thermal power handling when what really matters with bass is mechanical power handling. The mechanical power handling is a function of frequency response, cab size and tuning and cone area and excursion. Below 100Hz a typical 4x10" would be lucky to handle 300W without farting out, let alone the 1000W+ figures you see being quoted...

    Alex
     
  19. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I'd love to get my hands on Euphonic Audio's design tools, their transmission lines are so neat - and I totally agree that their cabs would be near impossible to copy and even then you'd need speakers like theirs, which aren't available unless you want to design them yourself. I suspect the subtleties of Bergantinos would be very very tough to replicate (getting the right woofers would be hard) and the crossover on the tweeters must be pretty damn good judging by its smoothness. And an Acme? Forget it, the crossover is a nightmare in itself (Andy doesn't even use the usual resistor based speaker model for the design, he does it all with complex numbers and real impedance magnitude and phase measurements), the woofers are pretty unusual in their specs, the midrange likewise, and the boxes are a jigsaw puzzle - if you bought all the components yourself it would cost more than the finished cab.

    SWR, Eden, Ampeg, Avatar, Epifani, MarkBass, Schroeder, etc would all be pretty easy to copy. But why bother?

    If you want a better cab and/or want to build one, Bill Fitzmaurice's designs are the obvious route to take!

    Alex
     
  20. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    And the specs at MF:
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Schroeder-21012-Light-Bass-Cabinet-?sku=484869&src=3SOSWXXA

    • Two 10 custom cast frame woofersAngled
    • custom 12 steel frame wooferSelenium
    • HDT150 horn
    • 1/4 and Speakon in/out
    • 35Hz 18kHz frequency response
    • 4 or 8 ohm impedance
    • 1200W RMS
    • 104dB SPL @ 1w/1m maximumWeight
    • : 56 lbs.Dimensions
    • : 23.5 x 23.5 x 16
    Must be exaggerations. It's be interesting to see what the actual measurements are.
     

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