DIY "tall-ish" 410 w/ Stepped Baffle

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by NKBassman, Nov 15, 2016.


  1. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    I've had four Eminence B810 speakers laying around the garage from a failed experiment a few years back, and I would really like to do something with them. Having just finished insulating my garage, this may be the winter to start.

    Given some commitments in the near term, I likely won't cut any wood until February, but since I only know enough about this to get myself into trouble I'd appreciate some input on the design from the TB braintrust. @kringle77 @DukeLeJeune @5StringPocket, I'm looking at you.

    What started out as boredom ended up as a sketch of a 410 cab with a stepped baffle arrangement. After doing some reading, it seems that short of going to an outright vertical orientation, using a baffle step arrangement doesn't really improve dispersion that much. No big deal. I like the arrangement because it really tightens up the physical dimensions of the cab and gets the speakers a little higher up off the ground.

    Using the documentation on the Eminence website for the "Large Sealed" B810 design, I started by assuming 0.9 cu.ft per driver. With four of the B810, that makes 3.6 ft3. I did a quick layout in Civil 3D to arrange the four speakers in the tightest possible grouping while still leaving some working space between each. I posted my sketch below.

    Given that we're shooting for 3.6 ft3, that makes the internal depth around 10.5". This seems very shallow. Even with a modest overhang at the front, this would result in the cab being only 13" deep.

    I'm currently using a pair of Ampeg 210AV cabs, which I'd guess would be around that depth, but commercial cabs that compact seem few and far between. Makes me think that I'm missing something.

    In terms of sonics, I'd like to try and achieve something with a tighter bottom end than the Ampeg 210AV cabs in using right now. Limiting the discussion to the speakers I already own, that would mean adjusting the cab volume to achieve the desired result. Any input at this stage would be much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
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  2. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Here's the preliminary layout.

    The overall baffle dimension was governed by the speaker arrangement, which wasn't really based on anything but visual appeal. :p

    The depth is based on 3.6 ft3 gross internal area.
    Exterior dimensions assuming 0.5" plywood.

    Aguilar Tonehammer 500 drawn for scale reference. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  3. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Version 1, now superseded. See below.
    upload_2016-11-15_15-45-27.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  4. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    I like it! Everything sounds good to me. I actually prefer the tone off this alignment better than vertical on axis.
     
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  5. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    That's all the endorsement I need. :)

    Any suggestions on fine tuning? Optimizations that could be made?
     
  6. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Could you describe the difference in sound between this alignment and, say, a vertically stacked 210 pair?
     
  7. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Thinking about the baffle, and bracing, I have a question.

    I know from reading lots of DIY cab threads, and building a fEarful 15/6, that it is good practice to put in front-to-back bracing between the baffle and rear wall of the cab. I've drawn two of these braces on my sketch above.

    I'm wondering if, beyond that, is it better to allow the baffle to vibrate or would it be beneficial to stiffen the baffle with more bracing? right now I'm envisioning a bracing scheme similar to that found on acoustic guitar tops... essentially framing the speaker cutouts with rib braces. Would extra bracing even make a difference on a 3/4" thick baffle?

    60.jpg
     
  8. BassmanPaul

    BassmanPaul Inactive

    I’d be tempted to do the cabinet as a vertical 4x10. Mind you I’d also split it in half for two 2x10s to make transport easier. :)

    What ever you decide I hope it’s as good as you hope it will be! :D

    Also don’t bother with phone jacks just fit SpeakOns.
     
  9. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Haha, I hope so too!

    Vertical 410 is out because I'd like the option to pair it with a tube amp as well as my micro. Even at the current width my Verellen Meatsmoke will hang over 1.5" on either side.

    I've been using the 2x Ampeg 210AV pair for a while now. I Love the schlep, but I'm not as into those cabs sonically as I was when I first started using them. I find the low end to be not as tight as I'd like. Has anyone modeled the low end on the Ampeg 210AV cabs? Is there a baked in bass bump caused by the small size of the enclosure?
     
  10. Coolhandjjl

    Coolhandjjl

    Oct 13, 2010
    Appleton
    You could make the cab deeper for stability and take up that added volume by making two angled dead chambers top left and lower right with one piece of wood per chamber.
     
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  11. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    Bracing is simple, put in 2 shelves. One between each vertical column of drivers. One on the left running from a side wall up to the driver opening on the left and then vise versa for the other side. This is how bergantino does it. Also, put in a brace from front to back on top and bottom, maybe 1.5 to 2" wide.

    This alignment will be thicker in the lowmids and stronger in the mids in general, on axis. You'll want that with the b810 driver.
     
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  12. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Thanks, I think I know what you mean. I'll sketch it up later to confirm.
     
  13. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Two shelves front to back, and two 1.5" square posts at the top and bottom.

    I may want to adjust the depth of the cab as @Coolhandjjl suggested. My Meatsmoke is 14" deep, so I might as well add on that extra 1.5" to the back of the cab for more stability. I could make up the volume by putting corner braces in instead of the 1.5" post braces. The 12.5" depth would be awesome for sliding into the back seat of a car, though...

    upload_2016-11-15_21-1-44.png
     
  14. pudgychef

    pudgychef In Memoriam

    Jan 22, 2005
    Chongqing, China
    Subscribed...sorry I have no knowledge to share, but I am keen to follow. Good luck with the project!
     
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  15. So, If you don't like 210s because they are not tight enough, then why would you like a 410 better? In my experience cabinets with less drivers sound tighter. I think it may be because of the effect the back waves of the drivers have on each other. Some manufactures put each driver in their own small chamber so that they don't effect each other. I think you may be going 180 degrees from what you want.
    Steve
     
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  16. Midak

    Midak

    Sep 4, 2011
    Athens, Greece
    Nice! Subscribed. :cool:

    I am currently building a custom 1x15'' bass cabinet, will create a thread soon. Very interested to see your progress!
    For any help you could ask @Arjank; he is very helpful and very knowledgeable. :)

    May I ask on what program did you sketch your drawings?
     
  17. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    The two shelves are right. The top and bottom should make contact with the top panel, front baffle and back. Its to brace the top panel. Same with the bottom. Your way does not brace this two panels.
     
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  18. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    I stopped generalizing about speaker cabs the day I started paying attention to what Bill Fitzmaurice had to say. I don't believe that all 210s are necessarily not tight enough, just like I don't believe that 10s necessarily are "more punchy", or that 15s necessarily "go lower". I just think my particular 210 cabs aren't really giving me exactly what I want, and I happen to have some speakers laying around.

    Maybe I should have phrased my comment on "tightness" as more of a question... Will this design give me the results I'm looking for? Unfortunately I don't have the experience to answer that myself.

    Here's a few things I think I know:
    • As cabinet volume decreases, the low end usually develops a "hump" between 100-200 Hz, and below the hump the low end will roll off faster.
    • As cabinet volume increases, the low end will flatten out (hump disappears), and the rolloff becomes more gradual.
    What I don't really know how this actually sounds like in real life. What graph shape defines "punchy" and "tight"?
    Is there a balancing act between a flat response / gentle rolloff, and exaggerated mid-bass / steep rolloff that will give me what I want?

    Maybe @kringle77 could take 5 minutes to describe the effects of increasing/decreasing cabinet volume on low end response, transient response ("quickness"), etc., and how that affects the sounds we hear in the room? I hate to single you out all the time, Chris, but I really respect all the work you've put into this subject over the years.

    For example, from the Eminence documentation for the Legend B810 Speaker, notice the exaggerated bass bump and much higher F3 on the smaller enclosure.

    Legend B810 Single Large Sealed
    upload_2016-11-16_9-8-54.png

    Legend B810 Single Small Sealed
    upload_2016-11-16_9-9-25.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  19. NKBassman

    NKBassman Lvl 10 Nerd Supporting Member

    Jun 16, 2009
    Winnipeg, MB, Canada
    Yes I forgot about @Arjank! Another very knowledgeable and helpful TBer!

    There won't be any physical progress on this for a while, but I'd like to get all the background settled so that when the time comes I'm all ready to go.
    I'm using AutoCAD for these drawings.
     
  20. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    You explained the effect of cab size with those particular drivers very well. In general, punch for me is a little bump at 150Hz that comes back to 0 at 100Hz and then had a slow roll off from there. 120Hz bump can be boomy, 200Hz hump can be contested,and boxy. These are generalizations and with different basses can sound different. I wish the b810 had a more "eminence" like curve that has a rising midrange with an upper mid breakup mode but. Then it wouldn't have that ampeg 8x10 like tone. This is where the nv610 excels. The large,cab,design is the one to go with.
     
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  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
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