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"DJ" and PA subs anyone?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by JohnP, Aug 1, 2001.


  1. JohnP

    JohnP

    Jun 9, 2001
    Chicago
    Endorsing Artist: Rick Turner Guitars, DTAR, Seymour Duncan,
    I have come to the conclusion after being here (TB) for a while that the needs of a dub/reggae player are very different (umm speaker wise) then the "avearge" (if there is one) bassist..I have been looking for a sub to give me more than adequate low end, and while the advice here has been usually excellent..most of it runs toward the articulation/punch side of things, which i already have with my amp; I am looking for the sub 90hz business end. Whenever I see something negative about a sub here, it usually says how boomy it is..but I am sort of looking for a bit of that boom. My search has turned to PA and "dj" type speakers....has anyone ever played through these B-52 cabs? THe bandpass 1x18 looks good.

    http://www.b-52pro.com

    I used to play thru 2 CV's..and that was delightful..I have been seriosly looking over there too.
     
  2. Word up...playing through PA sounds like ...t !

    sorry man.. but that's a fact.. :(

    the PA isn't built for bass, it's built for mostly vocals, which are on a WAY different frequency-range than bass.. the PA / PA speakers won't do the lows like it's supposed to.. which screws up your bass sound :(
     
  3. JohnP

    JohnP

    Jun 9, 2001
    Chicago
    Endorsing Artist: Rick Turner Guitars, DTAR, Seymour Duncan,
    nothing above 100 hz..and I DO play through a PA, every gig..just not the same PA, the same sidefills, the same engineer. If i was back in a pro level band, I wouldn't be even asking about this..but in the semi pro world, you have to "be prepared".
     
  4. VicDamone

    VicDamone

    Jun 25, 2000
    With all due respect to AllodoX playing through a PA system can be very rewarding if the system and the person running it are up to the task.

    There are a few products to choose from some of which are self powered. Myer Sound makes a 2-10" powered as well as larger 18" models. Warrwick has one and of course Bag End. I'm sure there are a few more I'm forgetting.

    Some PA sub cabinets are rated down to only 35Hz. A decent sub should start rolling off at 20-25Hz. Even a four string is producing overtones in that region. The big deal is how lightly you'll play the B and E strings to get their full tone.
     
  5. JohnP

    JohnP

    Jun 9, 2001
    Chicago
    Endorsing Artist: Rick Turner Guitars, DTAR, Seymour Duncan,
    well Mr Damone,
    I have tried the Bag End elf system-i live about 1/2 hour away from them.. and i don't want to pay the freight..the warwick powered sub is not happening volume or low end wise. i would love a Meyers, but again, the last time I looked...$$$$$.

    so maybe i should have qualified my ? with the following: as in under $600 for one heavy duty PA or "dj" style sub that goes flat +/- 3db to 31hz, doesn't weigh more than 100 lbs..and could be easily bought used..so that maybe at one time it was $1000 or more.
    this exist or am I dreamin?

    and i beg your pardon, but what 4 strings put out freq's below 41 hz? unless you are talking about hitting the body with a large rubber mallet or some other moderne' youth device?
     
  6. I'm into subs because my world exists between 31 and 80 Hz for the fundamentals. This world extends up to 7,000 Hz for the harmonics.

    Speakers that are flat to 31 Hz are going to be power hogs. I know... I own 'em. If you want something that is both Loud and Low to 31 Hz, it does exist, but it lives in 20 to 200 cubic feet of cabinet volume. Not a typo.

    Download my Musician's Reference spread sheet from my site at http://www.ofgb.org and scan the Drivers tab. Sort the spread sheet on the -1 dB column in ascending order, and you can read for yourself. I have a lot of drivers catalogged including SPL and cabinet size.

    You are going to need multiple drivers if you truly want to get all the way down with any volume. I have a pair of Rockford 15" subs, and am building two more pair of Rockford 2x10 cabs. There is a vigorous debate going on about the virtues of having multiple drivers and the "free" loudness you get from them, in the "2x10 or 4x10" thread. Worthwhile reading.

    If you go subwoofers, you are going to bi-amp. Get used to it and get past it. This is not a bad thing. Subwoofers are all done about 100 Hz, so this is the perfect place to crossover to you mid-bass drivers. I use JBL E110s because they are killer from 100 to 8,000 Hz. No tweeters required. They are perfectly at home with a bass from 100 Hz and up, because they are designed for a standard lead guitar that works from 80 Hz up.

    There is lots of talk about crisper performance from the 10s compared to the 15s. I can't speak to this yes or no, until I get my 2x10 cabs done. IMO, this will be a non-issue, because IMO all the 15" and 18" commercial cabs I've seen so far stuff their drivers into much too small a volume, which kills the bass response.

    As for DJ cabinets, the JBL models will not give you what you want. All the JBLs I've catalogged in my spread sheet do NOT get down. I'm using premium grade automotive subwoofers, which DO get all the way down.

    Check out the spread sheet. There is a wealth of understanding in it.
     
  7. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
    you da man, pbg :D
     
  8. Phat Ham

    Phat Ham

    Feb 13, 2000
    DC
    Those yamaha SW118IV subs are a steal at $350. They are probably the best single 18 subs you can get without paying a considerable amount more.
     
  9. Can i use that yamaha sub on my carvin r600 head biamped with my 4-10 or would it be a waste of money?
     
  10. Phat Ham

    Phat Ham

    Feb 13, 2000
    DC
    You could, but you would probably end up wanting more power. The R600 puts out 175 watts per side at 8 ohms, which isn't enough to push a sub IMO. Remember, the lower you go the more power you need.
     
  11. JohnP

    JohnP

    Jun 9, 2001
    Chicago
    Endorsing Artist: Rick Turner Guitars, DTAR, Seymour Duncan,
    We were talking about this on another thread- when I looked up the "features" for that YAM sub, it said "works down to 40hz", in the "spec" section it sez 30 hz- but @-10 db, which is weak. At present I am leaning to Cerwin Vegas or an Eden 1x18..they both are very efficient, and while not super lightweight- though both are under 100 lbs- and not super cheap- $500 or so street- they seem to be the basis for a good low end. There's also the B-52 company, and even Behringer has a 1x18 sub..which is 1/2 the price of a Yam sub at AMS for $180..the problem being that you can't a/b/c/d them at the same place because no dealer will have them all in stock. So it's specs and reviews..but as Bruce G has pointed out, most MI specs are useless..wouldn't it be nice just to see a simple graph with spl @ different freqs for the speakers you were interested in?
    jp
     
  12. I just grabbed the specs on the Yamaha sub in question, and they publish an impedance and response curve for it. To me, it looks like too small a cabinet causing a typical strong Foh upper resonance at 55 Hz. The response is flat above Foh, and rolls off -10 dB from there down to 30 Hz. Again, typical performance from too big a driver in too small a cabinet.

    Yamaha appears to tune at 30 Hz from the impedance curve. This offers good cone loading for both 4 and 5 strings, but is unloaded at that low F# (23 Hz) on 6 strings. The low tuning allows using EQ to boost the lows below 55 Hz.

    The Cerwin-Vega Sub-18B appears to be a VERY loud DJ cab, and I suspect pretty useless as a bass guitar sub. High efficiency and Lowness don't go together. Of course they won't publish specs.

    Consider the Eden 118XL or SWR Big Ben, as both have published -6 dB specs at 31 and 25 Hz respectively. The Eden is also published as -2 dB at 42 Hz. Both appear to have a more gentle rolloff than the Yamaha sub. The Behringer B1800 sub is -6 dB at 42 Hz... not in the same league as the others.

    The most interesting of the lot to me are the B-52 band pass subs. Band pass configurations are optimized for max SPL and compromise by restricting this over a narrow frequency response. Since most bass rigs are deficient below 41 Hz, this might be an ideal solution for 5 string players. The B-52 model is a single bandpass rig because Bose has a patent on the dual chamber configuration, which works over a wider range of frequencies. Bummer for commercial rigs, but wide open to home builders.
     
  13. I heard back from B-52 support today: they claim +/- 3dB specs for their cabinets. If accurate, this means their bandpass cabs are (at the worst) down -3dB at 30 Hz. I will include a quote from his email:

     
  14. Phat Ham

    Phat Ham

    Feb 13, 2000
    DC
    Has anyone tried the Acme Low B-2W or B-4W? The website says they get flat response down to 31hz. And they are relatively small so you wouldn't have to lug a huge box around.
     
  15. The Acme cabs are -6 dB at 31 Hz and -3 dB at 41 Hz.
     
  16. ThunderStik

    ThunderStik Guest

    Jun 25, 2001
    Claremore OK.
    bgavin, the numbers on the b-52's look almost too good or is it just me? The spl and sensitivity levels look very high for something that can go that low but if they are not "fudging" that could be the hot ticket with an acme low b-2 on top.
     
  17. JohnP

    JohnP

    Jun 9, 2001
    Chicago
    Endorsing Artist: Rick Turner Guitars, DTAR, Seymour Duncan,
    .....which is why I asked about them in the first place..but no one has ever tried one.
     
  18. ThunderStik

    ThunderStik Guest

    Jun 25, 2001
    Claremore OK.
    JohnP, I think you should be the first, that way if it sounds bad its your money wasted not mine. As we all know my money is far more valuable than your money. ( lol)
     
  19. Damn John P, get yourself one of those B-52's already! i am dying to hear your reaction? These could be the perfect bass subs....they look amazing. Oh yeah, stylish too. Sure seems like the bandpass cab is the way to go. I may need one of these myself. Where is the x-over point set? Do you have any idea how much these will sell for?
     
  20. The nature of a bandpass configuration is for maximum SPL. It is (yet another) tradeoff between efficiency and frequency range in this case.

    Note they are playing games with the wattage. If you check their site, they are quoting everything except RMS power. This allows them to have higher numbers, and higher max SPL ratings. I took their Program Power rating and cut it in half for actual RMS power. So, IMO the single 18" is a 275 watt RMS box, with a calculated max SPL of 124 at 1w/1m.

    B-52 recommends a crossover point between 80 and 100 Hz. A bandpass box operates over a VERY restricted range, so this make sense to me. I asked for a plot of the response curve, and got ignored. Perhaps it will be in my mail tonight...

    BOSE holds the patents on the 6th order bandpass boxes which are dual chambers, both ported. The B-52 is a 4th order type,which is a sealed chamber and single ported chamber. The BOSE tuning is staggered and apparently provides a wider response curve. I think the typical bass player is looking for max-ballz in the 31 to 50 Hz range, so the concept of bandpass might be worth investigating. I'd sure like to hear one.