# Dm7b5 preferred over Dø

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by ryco, Jun 28, 2008.

1. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
Except when CAug7 means CMaj7(#5). Have you been reading these posts? Read what I said in post 77 and reiterated in post 78. Now, I would make the argument almost from a tertian point of view that it actually does make more sense that a Aug7 chord should mean a M7 based on the fact that having a b7 creates a suspension between the #5 and b7 rather than the tertian interval between the #5 and M7. It is only because I can see that for the most part Aug7 would be taken to mean a b7 that I don't enforce that view. So for the sake of ambiguity I would write those two chords as I said before.

2. ### projectMalamute

Jan 9, 2008
Westfield, MA, USA
I don't care how elegant your argument regarding tertian intervals is, we are dealing with notation here. A notation only means what the people using it have agreed it means, elegant or not. That notation is clearly and unambiguously defined amongst every group of musicians I have ever associated with. Off the top of my head you will find it in: the Real Book, any of the Aebersold books, instructional materials from the Berklee school, instructional materials from New England Conservatory, and every book of lead sheets I've seen playing jazz gigs from Detroit to Boston. Outside of that website you linked to I have never heard of someone expecting a major 7th in that chord.

3. ### onlyclave

Oct 28, 2005
Seattle
I think the site that you referenced in this post is full of crap:

"G# to Bb is a 2nd interval", no, that is a diminished 3rd

"Gb to B is a 4th interval", wrong again, augmented 3rd.

I think of augmented chords as being related to the whole tone scale. If you take a C whole tone (C D E F# G# A#) and build a chord using every other pitch you get C E G# A#(Bb), the C+7. You will have to agree that this chord is different than Cmaj7(#5).

4. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
Once again you should read what I post before you respond like this. It's not about my tertian argument at all, though I am willing to bet I'm not far off the mark with the argument I make there, it's about the fact that the IS SOME ambiguity involved. Writing the chords as C7(#5) and CMaj7(#5), respectively, completely removes any ambiguity involved. You must be nuts to want to argue that point.

Once again though, music theory wasn't invented by the American jazz scene.

5. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
Granted that is a good argument. By the way I never posted that site as a way of proving anything just to say that I found an example where CAug7 was equated to CMaj7(#5).

Your reference of the wholetone scale has only one shortcoming as far as I can see and that is that there is no tertian context for a 7th unless you take it that you are omitting something from the scale.

While I agree that you could see the interval from G# to Bb as a diminished 3rd I still think you are stretching it outside of diatonic reference to do so. Your argument is valid I agree but then I come back to what I was saying about uniformity in making assumptions about naming chords. How do we now justify that a dim7 has a bb7 other than by saying "that's just how it is"?

6. ### projectMalamute

Jan 9, 2008
Westfield, MA, USA
Fine, whatever. That's where the notation comes from, but I suppose if it wasn't invented by a dead white guy it doesn't count. Find me a community of musicians anywhere that will interpret C+7 as having a major 7th and I will concede that it is ambiguous.

7. ### ryco

Apr 24, 2005
97465
I guess the key word would be "oh, I could play a Dorian over this" not that I'm am required to or locked into. Experiment. And your right - if I truly wished to play arpeggios that quickly, I would practice doing so.
I'm not too concerned about what/how ppl may or may not label me. I think that all has to do with reflection and esteem issues that I'm too old to care about anymore. Not to be rational or defensive -- just sayin'.
Yeah, I'm hip to the two diminished scale WH, HW. But I'm not familiar with the two you posted.
They seem to break the symmetrical pattern that I learned:
Diminished =WHWHWHWH C D Eb F Gb Ab Bbb B
Dom 7 (using a dim scale) = HWHWHWHW C Db Eb E F# G A Bb
Reading through the chord scales you posted these are fully diminished scales. And it seems the prerequisite is one starts between the scale tones and plays up the diatonic scale with the exception of making sure to play the bb7. Weird.
C# play the remainder of the C scale except for Bb = bb of C#
F# play the remainder of the C scale except for Eb = bb of F#
Interesting, but I dunno. Thank you for the recommendation though.

8. ### Martin Bormann

Sep 20, 2007
I think for purposes of text based forums, the "&#8709;" symbol shouldn't be used. It's not the correct symbol the begin with. The proper one is a degree symbol with a slash through it. I had to look at the OP for a good 20 seconds before I realised which symbol he meant.

9. ### onlyclave

Oct 28, 2005
Seattle
Dude, measuring of intervals is taught in the first week of any music theory course. There is nothing being stretched outside of the diatonic reference.

Diminished < Minor < Major < Augmented

except in the case of perfect intervals

Diminished < perfect < Augmented

dim7 has a double flat because it is tertian. I don't care if Bbb is a white key that looks like an A natural. Tertian harmony is based on thirds only.

What's a better discussion is based on the little chart above, what happens if you take a perfect prime interval and lower one note?

Yeah I'm trying to derail this thread. We've already had our ambiguous chord symbol argument for this month.

10. ### HaVIC5

Aug 22, 2003
Brooklyn, NYC
That's just a coincidence. The chord/scale for the #IIdim7 in C is D# E F# G A B C D. The point is to find all the notes in between the chord tones that are diatonic to the key. In this instance, F# isn't diatonic, but its a chord tone, so its part of the chord/scale.

EDIT: I love how pointlessly off-track these threads get. Let's keep it going, shall we?

11. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
So you are saying that suspended chords are tertian harmony, I take it.

12. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
I told you so

13. ### Martin Bormann

Sep 20, 2007
Well, it's easy to get off track when some people (not giving any names) don't understand that there is no 7th in a whole-tone scale. But that doesn't stop them from commenting...

14. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
On that subject. Here is a little bit of trivia. A diminished scale is actually the constituents of two dim7 chords a m2 apart.

15. ### mutedeity

Aug 27, 2007
Sydney
Music notation comes from American Jazz theory?

16. ### onlyclave

Oct 28, 2005
Seattle
Absolutely not. In tertian harmony a suspended chord would be analyzed with an accented non-harmonic tone. Without having something to analyze I cannot say definitively if it is a upper neighbor, passing tone, suspension.

Tertian is based on thirds. Suspended chords (C sus4 C F G) are quartal (G C F).

Are you feeling ok these days Mutedeity? I thought you knew that stuff.

Here's a question HaVIC5 might be able to answer: What interval is Gb-B#? I can't seem to wrap my brain around it, either it's the heat or I've become stupid in my old age.

17. ### MushrooSupporting Member

Apr 2, 2007
Massachusetts, USA
Obviously it's not an augmented 4th, or a diminished 5th, but I think we can safely call it a tritone.

18. ### projectMalamute

Jan 9, 2008
Westfield, MA, USA
That's where you are going to find the symbol we are talking about, yes. Unless of course you are able to show me some other community which supports your interpretation of it.

You spend a lot of time on this forum making pronouncements as to other peoples lack of knowledge and understanding. The fact you were led astray by some hack website surprises me. Perhaps you should just admit that you didn't know what the hell you were talking about when you made that statement.

19. ### Bruce LindfieldUnprofessional TalkBass ContributorGold Supporting MemberIn Memoriam

Presumably not much of a Jazz scene in Australia...?

So - Europe and of course America has a strong tradition of Jazz - but I've never heard of any Australian Jazz and I do look out for all sorts - Cuban, Brazilian, etc.

20. ### Alvaro Martín Gómez A.TalkBass' resident Bongo + cowbell player

What you hear there is a tritone, but technically that's a double augmented third.