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Eden -- hoping against hope.

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by robb., Nov 10, 2004.


  1. i was thinking about getting an eden WT-400 or WT-550 head fot the small gigs and to use as a front end for my crest pro 7200 for the bigger gigs. this would be particularly nice modularity when i get a bergantino EX-112.

    unfortunately, from what research i've done online, it appears eden heads do not have any preamp outputs. that is to say, they don't have any post-master outputs, but only a post-EQ, pre-master DI (with rear panel adjustable level).

    or so the manuals would have me believe. but i want to ask the eden owners: is there any way i can use an eden head as a front end to a power amp in any reasonable way? i don't want to power my amp from the headphone output. is there an output on the rear panel that is post-master?

    i like my current preamp a lot, so it's not as much a tone decision as a flexibility decision. in other words, please don't suggest the navigator preamp. i already have a preamp i like a lot.

    thanks for your help.

    robb.
     
  2. winston

    winston Supporting Member

    May 2, 2000
    Berkeley, CA
    I have a WT-400. The only post-master preamp out is the front panel headphone out, which Eden recommends for the purpose of driving power amps. I haven't used it to drive a big PA amp or anything, but it sounded good (full tone, little noise) when I plugged it into my 4-track and the FX return of my GK400RB. There are a number of TB'ers who have reported no problems using the Eden headphone out to drive big power amps.

    The signal flow of the Eden is a little weird (fx loop insert point is after volume/compressor/enhance but pre-EQ; DI is post-EQ only; only post-master out is headphone jack; power amp limiter activates when driving headphones) but the amp sounds/performs great, and I really love the two aux in jacks.
     
  3. Brendan

    Brendan

    Jun 18, 2000
    Austin, TX
    I dunno what the manuals say, but I used my WT-300 as a preamp for years. I used the DI out into the poweramp in, and it was good. Need an XLR/mic cable to do it, but otherwise, it performs just as you (I think) want: just the preamp.

    Used in conjuction with a Carvin DCM1000, both of which still work. I've never used the headphone jack for anything. And the tuner out/effect chain are really quiet when driving a poweramp. I trued that, and was like "Is this what a killowatt sounds like? Weak." Then I used the DI, and it functioned just as any other preamp out there.

    ed- Winston, the DI was post-master on my WT-300. I know this from use, both studio and gigging. Are the 400s different? (Mine I believe was a '98).

    Only thing is, when you do it, turn the master volume down to zero (off) and use the gain as your preamp volume, and the poweramp as your master volume. Which, essentially means the DI functioned as a preamp out, as I'm led to believe.
     
  4. Eden's specs are notriously unreliable. Best source is to download manual. I have the time traveller, the cheapest wimpiest eden head(actually combo). It does have pre and post, but you have to press a button to specify, and that is on front.
    edit:
    I misspoke. The pre/post switch applies to the balanced DI. Headphone output is good and usuable as post eq line out, not a cheap IC. I have run the tuner out jack-post eq into an ashdown combo's effects loop return- getting the volume of both but only using edens preamp and volume. cool. these edens are extremely versatile.
     
  5. Brendan -- i was hoping to avoid controlling volume with my power amp. i would rather use the master volume control on the front panel. which is why the DI output is not my first choice. that is how my warwick quadruplet works, actually. it has a "fixed" output XLR and a post-master volume .250" output. since i'm using a power amp, i'd rather both be XLR.

    winston -- another "wish i could avoid it" situations. maybe i'll make the move and bite the bullet. or better yet, make my own mod.

    angel -- i checked the manuals first, but i looked at the legacy manual for the WT-300, not the manual for the time traveller. of course, now that i've checked the time traveller manual, it also appears to have the same outputs as the others.

    all -- thanks for the info. you have answered my questions, so now it's only a matter of doing something about the GAS or getting over it.

    thanks.

    robb.
     
  6. winston

    winston Supporting Member

    May 2, 2000
    Berkeley, CA
    The XLR DI on my '98 WT-400 is definitely post EQ and pre master. The level is controlled by the input gain and the DI out level on the back, the master doesn't do anything to the XLR level--this has been my experience and is also what the manual says. If the DI was post master, you wouldn't have gotten any sound from the XLR to drive a power amp with.
     
  7. Brendan

    Brendan

    Jun 18, 2000
    Austin, TX
    Righto, then. Must be thinking of different things when we say post-master.
     
  8. Thunderfunk

    Thunderfunk

    Mar 27, 2004
    McHenry, IL

    Years ago I visited a recording studio and hi-end stereo store in SW Chicago (Palos Hills?) called Gill Custom House. They were using Crown D60's to drive low-impedance lines sending preamp signals across the demo room. On thinking about it I realized that the output impedance was 8 ohms. That's really low. And I thought, "Why Not?" Don't think there's anything wrong with using a headphone out to drive a power amp in. Most will drive a watt or more at low impedance and can drive most any input at a distance. It should be an excellent way to drive a power amp, and if a headphone out is noisy, then you'll really hear it, because you're listening to it through headphones! I'd give it a try and would expect it to work perfectly.

    Dave "Thunder" Funk
     
  9. Dave -- thanks for the input. having worked for crown and used the D-45 as a headphone amp and preamp for the K and others in the lab, i know it's technically feasible, and sometimes even preferrable, to feed a power amp with a headphone amp.

    my preference is more of the, "i have a 4U rack bag and a 2U power amp, so i don't want to have to find a novel way to run a cable from the front panel of the eden to the rear panel of my power amp.

    that said, none of this is a deal breaker, because i'm thinking about doing a mod -- provided i decide to get an eden head by selling my quadruplet -- to either add an output on the rear panel that is in parallel with the heaphone output, and is, therefore, post-master volume or to make the XLR DI post-master. i'll have to see it on the inside to decide which will be easier and/or better.

    oh, hell. would it kill me to use the power amp to control volume and set an "absolute maximum" with the DI level control on the eden? maybe i should just get a thunderfunk, though, eh? ;)

    robb.
     
  10. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    the headphone out of the wt -400 works fine to drive a power amp
    the di also works well as it has impressive dB range. Usually for a mic level output you can't set the pad knob any higher than 9 o'clock. Cranking it should give you much closer to line level
     
  11. SoComSurfing

    SoComSurfing Mercedes Benz Superdome. S 127. R 22. S 12-13.

    Feb 15, 2002
    Mobile, Al
    Robb - since you're so enamoured with the Warwick pre, why not just get a smaller power amp for the small gigs? An ST1000, CA4 or 6, or Pro3301 seem to be about what you're looking for, power-wise, from the Crest family.
     
  12. goat1234

    goat1234

    Mar 17, 2004
    Virgnia
    The Crest Ca-4 and 6 are heavier than the power amp he is currently using i beleive. I am using a Crest Ca-6 with a demeter pre, and bergie ht112/ex112 combo, and the rack is just annoying, especially if im playing a small gig or just a practices. Im looking at getting an eden wt550 and possibly dumping the whol rack itself, but am worried that it wont be powerful enough. Sorry to hijack the thread!
     
  13. Adron -- good to see you survived Ivan. goat has it right, though. it's not lower power i'm looking for, or even to replace the quadruplet (maybe patience is the key here, as always). mostly i just got to thinking about how nice it would be to have a small head for when i'm not gigging (which, since my guitar player moved to dallas, is not often).

    the problem is that i played my friend's old, crusty GK 400RB. it was surprisingly loud -- loud enough for practice and rehearsal -- and weighed very little. then i remembered that i was using an eden head the first time i auditioned an HT-112 and realized it was a cabinet i could not live without.

    so i started thinking about getting an eden head, but realized i couldn't afford one without replacing gear. and i'd rather have an eden head than a GK head, which can be had for much cheaper.

    so that's the long version. if anyone wants to sell me an eden head for embarassingly cheap, PM me. i may wait until after christmas and buy it from some poor person who needs to sell gear to pay off their credit card bills.

    robb.
     
  14. winston

    winston Supporting Member

    May 2, 2000
    Berkeley, CA
    Hey Goat1234--I have gigged twice in the last month with a single Berg HT112 driven by the 230 watts @ 8ohms from an Eden WT-400. First gig was funky jazz (using my F-Bass BN-5) with electric gtr, keys, loud drummer and trumpeter in jazz club. No PA, sound/volume were impressive, power amp limit only came on when I really dug in or used heavy octaver/envelope FX. Second gig I used Messenger EUB in large, high ceilinged wooden pub with drummer and amplified acoustic guitarist playing Django-style jazz. No PA, great sound, never saw limiter come on.

    I play mostly jazz these days at reasonable volumes. I think the need for massive headroom on Berg 112s is overhyped (at least for the situations I'm playing). If you're playing loud rock or metal you might need a lot of extra power. More than a few people on TB love their Berg 112's with Dave Funk's 400 watt Thunderfunk or the WT-550.
     
  15. SoComSurfing

    SoComSurfing Mercedes Benz Superdome. S 127. R 22. S 12-13.

    Feb 15, 2002
    Mobile, Al
    Ahh....I see now. Let us know when you and the mrs. want to plan another trip down this way. Gulf Shores won't be much to look at for quite a while, but there's other things to do on the coast. I'm considering booking the studio one weekend for another GTG in Mobile. We'll see.
     
  16. Thunderfunk

    Thunderfunk

    Mar 27, 2004
    McHenry, IL
    Sorry. I took it to mean that you thought a headphone amp had inferior tone.

    Yes.