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Eden tweeter sound: horn or crossover?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by 12bass, Mar 21, 2006.


  1. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    Hi Everyone!

    Presently I'm using an Eden D210XST with my WT500.

    While many here have commented on the smooth, extended high frequency response of Bergantino cabinets, there seems to be a common criticism of "harsh" or "spitty" high frequency response from Eden's golden David E-2700 Cast Bell tweeter. I should note that I do like the sound of the XST cabinet as it is. I think the woofers are pretty decent sounding.

    I'm wondering if any of you have thoughts on whether the tweeter itself, the crossover, or perhaps both are responsible for the less than smooth response?

    It seems to me that the crossover frequency is too high for the XST woofers, and serves to create a hole in the upper midrange and give a "subwoofer with a tweeter on top" kind of sound.

    Would a redesigned crossover help, or is the sound of the tweeter itself the major problem? If a redesigned crossover would help, I would be willing to build a new crossover circuit. Is there another tweeter that would make a better replacement?

    Opinions and technical advice are most welcome!
     
  2. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    From a technical standpoint the crossover from tens to a high frequency driver should occur in the 2kHz to 3kHz range. Whether your Eden does so, and whether it uses an adequate crossover (minimum 3rd order highpass on the tweeter, 1st order lowpass on the woofers) is something only Eden, or someone who owns and has examined one, can say.
     
  3. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    Thanks for your reply Bill,

    As I understand it, the D210XST uses an 3500 Hz, 18db/octave crossover on the E-2700 tweeter (according to Eden's specifications). And, from what I have gathered from comments on the Eden board and elsewhere, the woofers are full range (no crossover).

    After looking around the Eden site, I found that the D112XLT and Rocco Prestia's new 8x10" both use a 2500 Hz crossover.

    Would altering the crossover help smooth out the response? What would the effect be of lowering the crossover frequency to 2500 Hz, but leaving the woofers full range? I'm still wondering about the sound of the tweeter itself....
     
  4. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    Suggest posting to the Eden users' forum: www.eden-electronics.co,/forum
     
  5. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    Thanks for the suggestion. However, I don't the see the Eden forum as a place to discuss this issue. IMO, the climate there is not conducive to open criticism of their product.
     
  6. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    There's no question that lowering the crossover would be beneficial, as right now you've got a response hole, just as you surmised. Whether you can do it or not with the tweeter that's in there is the question. By going to a 4th or 5th order highpass filter it might be possible, but you'd have to know the fs and frequency response of the tweeter. As for running the woofers full range, doing so means the woofers and tweeter are both producing sound within the same frequency band, and that's detrimental. Also, with no high pass filtering to divert high frequencies away from the woofers and into the tweeters a good deal of your high-frequency power is being wasted in the woofers, where it can't do anything.
    I'd do so the day after they post on axis and 30 degrees off-axis SPL charts for their products. Without that information all else is pure conjecture.
     
  7. pickles

    pickles Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 23, 2000
    Ventura, CA
    That seems like a fairly common complaint on the XST (which I did some searching on a few days ago) ... when you build speakers to go LOW you loose efficiency and some of the upper mids we love from "normal" 10s. On some cabs a cone midrange driver is used to compensate, but the XST just has the tweet, so theres a bit of a dip.

    I personally wouldn't mess with rebuilding the crossover, I'd just go shopping for a cab that was more to my liking, or just use EQ to compensate.
     
  8. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    No matter how you build it the cone diameter of a ten will be about 8 inches, and that's the main factor in determining where the off-axis sensitivity drops too low for the driver to be useful. As for going low, Eden's advertised bandwidth claims have always been very suspect, and without SPL charts to back them up have to be taken with a grain of proverbial salt.
     
  9. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    No doubt the majority of that forum are drinking the Eden cool-ade and opinions are highly skewed - but if you're looking for facts you'll likely get factual replies (such as "whether it uses a... minimum 3rd order highpass on the tweeter, 1st order lowpass on the woofers..." as Bill pondered).

    I'm having trouble with this... the cab has a crossover but it only acts as a high pass filter for the tweeter? Since the cab has a single input, is that input split with most of the current (the full range signal) going to the drivers, and some fraction filtered and sent to the tweeter? Is this their design?

    And if the full range drivers are being sent a full range signal, then I don't understand how there can be a "response hole."

    Do most bass cab makers publish these data? Do any? I've never seen response vs. freq curves for any bass cab, let alone on/off axis plots. Most don't even say +/- n dBs over their operating range.

    From my experience, Eden's specs for sensitivity and low frequency -3dB point are 'accurate' in a general and relative sense to other cab makers specs (perhaps the better term would be 'precise'). I've compared Eden cabinets with GK, SWR, Carvin cabs I've owned. The GKs were spec'd +3dB more than the Eden with a lower freq response - and relatively speaking, that's how they performed. The SWRs had a slightly higher low freq response and less sensitivity, and relatively speaking that's how they performed. The 410 Carvin cab had very poor specs and an Eden 210 cab blew it away, also as would be expected from the numbers. In addition, I've checked out Aguilar and EA cabs (in a store, without direct comparison), and their specs appear to be, to a first order of magnitude, consistent relative to what I hear from my Eden cabs.

    True, spec numbers can be manipulated by design choices and even if a single entitiy verified consistency between manufacturers, offer only a small view of the overall response picture. But comparing specs will get you in the ballpark of how one cab will respond relative to another. I fail to see that Eden's specs are more "suspect" than any other brand.
     
  10. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    No disagreement there.
    True. And they likely never will unless forced to by an outside agency such as the FCC or FTC, or unless magazines like 'Bassplayer' include SPL measurements as part of the review process. 'Consumer Reports' would have a field day with this industry.
    Simple. Tens don't work with useable dispersion to 3.5kHz. Even 2.5kHz is stretching it. Try to find hi-fi ten that crosses at 3.5kHz. Even Bose wouldn't try to get away with that.
     
  11. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    I wish all manufacturers had proper, meaningful specifications. An impedance selector from 4 to 8 ohms would be nice too.... ;)

    Without confirmation from Eden, I'm gathering that the 18 dB specification on the crossover implies that it is 3rd order.

    According to information on the Eden website, the D112XLT uses an 2.5 kHz, 18 dB crossover, while the D810RP (Rocco) uses a 2.5 kHz, 12 dB crossover, all with the E2700 horn. This would imply that Eden considers the horn capable of handling the 2.5 kHz frequency range with a 12 dB/octave crossover.
     
  12. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    Thanks pickles,

    Even though the D210XST goes lower than the D210XLT, in an A/B test, I found the D210XST to sound more open in the upper mids. IMO, the sound of the XLT cabinets is clouded with lower mids, while the XST cabinets are more present in the lows and upper mids.

    That said, I've found that a bit of EQ boost in the 1.2 kHz to 2 kHz range seems to help open up the sound of the cabinet.

    I like the sound of the cabinet for the most part. Further, as a tweaker, I'm curious to see if I can get a more even treble response from my cabinet, even if it means redesigning of the crossover. After all, it's fun to tweak!
     
  13. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    Aha, thanks, now I'm seeing where your off-axis comment applies.

    I've often wondered why bass gear, and especially cabs, are not subject more objective analysis. All we get are subjective "our listeners liked this" reviews. Then they rate them on a some arbitrary 1 to 10 scale to make it appear scientific (I recall one "Shootout" where all the ratings were between 8-10, what crap).
     
  14. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    "Tweaker" has a very different meaning 'round these parts....

    Anyway, odds are you could buy one (or both) of the different crossover circuits directly from Eden to try out on the cab.
     
  15. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    From: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tweaker
    <table class="title"><tbody><tr><td class="word">
    </td> </tr></tbody></table>1. Tweaker
    Also: tweeker.

    1. Person who constantly stays up cleaning, washing, organizing, powertooling, sorting or otherwise keeping themself busy doing menial tasks.
    2. Someone who constantly makes slight alterations on (usually a very specific) object, i.e. computer, software, automobile, etc.
    3. A compulsive liar, thief, or both.
    4. A methamphetamine ("tweak"), or other form of speed, addict (who displays all of the above in an obsessive-compulsive manner).

    Interesting.......

    I'm guessing you associate the term with definition 4., while I am using definition 2..
     
  16. If Saskatchewan is anything like its Great Plains neighbors to the south, I'm sure there are plenty of folks "On the Tweek Again" in Saskatoon!

    Interesting that Eden uses that same crossover even for its 2x12 and 1x15 cabinets, where there surely is even less capability for the woofers to produce sounds in the 2-3.5kHz range. I suppose building a different crossover for every cab model would be expensive, but it'd also sound a whole hell of a lot better...
     
  17. pickles

    pickles Gold Supporting Member

    Mar 23, 2000
    Ventura, CA
    ROFL ... its a fine line though! :bassist:
     
  18. LoveThatBass

    LoveThatBass

    Jun 28, 2004
    removed
     
  19. 12bass

    12bass

    Jan 2, 2003
    Victoria, Canada
    Do you have a link for such a design?
     
  20. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    Unfortunately, yes.

    Per my understanding of Bill's comments, this may not be at all true.

    IIRC the 212XLT has the 2.5kHz crossover (their webpage specs are internally inconsistent).
     

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