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Efficiency (Aguilar 12" cabs)

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by alexclaber, May 23, 2003.

  1. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I've been pondering whether to get a lightweight efficient cab for when I can't be bothered to move both my Acmes and was looking at Aguilar's 1x12".

    What really struck me was the specs they claim for it - 102dB @ 1W 1M and response down to 42Hz. I then had a look at their other 12" cabs and the specs really don't add up.

    Aguilar's various 12" cabs:

    Frequency response: 42 Hz to 16 kHz
    Sensitivity: 102 dB @ 1W 1M

    Frequency response: 41 Hz to 16 kHz
    Sensitivity: 103 dB @ 1W 1M

    Frequency response: 37 Hz to 16 kHz
    Sensitivity: 104 dB @ 1W 1M

    As I understand it When two speakers are used in parallel you get a 3dB increase in efficiency over the full range, and an additional 3dB in the low freqs only. This is
    because when two woofers are within 1/2 wavelength of each other, they act as one unit and you get a 3dB increase in maximum LF acoustic output. The highest freq at which you get this benefit is f = 3000 / D, where D is the number of inches between the woofers, measured center to center.

    So if we assume that the LF boost is accounted for by the lower frequency response of the bigger cabs, there is still a discrepancy in the efficiency of the cabs. Either the 4x12" should be 108dB @ 1W 1M or (more realistically) the 1x12" should be 98dB @ 1W 1M. That 98dB sounds about right to me because it's still a lot more than my Acme Low-B2 cabs but not so high to suggest that one Aguilar 1x12" would be louder than 4x10" worth of Acme.

    You've just gotta love manufacturer's specs...

  2. basss

    basss Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2001
    I used to own a GS112. It's a great sounding cab but I think the sensitivity spec is exagerated. It can get loud but not that loud. I compared it with the EA CXL 112 (sensitivity 103db) that I own now and the EA blew it out of the water volume-wise. A little over a year ago when I was cab shopping I remember the GS112 being rated at 99db sensitivity on the aggie website and then one day it "changed" to 102db.
  3. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    How do you think a GS112 would compare, loudness-wise, with an Acme Low-B2 being driven by 700W RMS? How powerful an amp can the GS112 handle before nasty things start to happen, i.e. overexcursion and voicecoils melting?

  4. basss

    basss Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2001
    I've never tried a B2. Try a search -there is a lot of information in previous posts about these cabs.
    The GS112 can handle a lot of power and has a great amout of low end for a small cab. I bridged a stewart 1.2 (700watts into 8 ohms) and it did fine. Some people say these cabs fart out on the super low notes of a 5 string but that was not my experience.
  5. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    Well I have two Low-B2's - I was just wondering how the Aguilar GS112 compared in volume as I haven't come across one in the UK? Anyone out there got experience with both? Anyone AB'd Acmes with any of the 1x12" cabs out there?

    I've just done some searches and not found much information of use - most discussions about Acmes and volume appear to centre around bassists in bands where the guitarist(s) use(s) 100W stacks and play loud rock!

  6. ThunderStik

    ThunderStik Guest

    Jun 25, 2001
    Claremore OK.
    Also you must remember that those nubers are taken at the industry standard of 1000hz so it really means nothing as to how loud it would be at bass frequencies. I have a little experience with the gs112, I did not care for it at all. When compared to other higher end 12's it just sounded like it had a blanket over it and it also bottomed out hard on the b string of the 6 I was playing through it. My good friend owned and got rid of it after 2 weeks.
  7. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    Well, although the efficiency is taken at 1kHz for most cabs, that combined with the frequency response should tell you the LF efficiency. i.e. if the GS112 is 102dB@1w1m, and flat within 3dB across it's frequency range, its efficiency SHOULD be no less than 99dB@1w1m anywhere in the spectrum.

    Although Low-B2's are inefficient they're not 10dB less efficient than all these other 2x10" cabs out there claim. Maybe this is because the Acmes efficiency is a mean efficiency across the entire frequency range or across the woofer's operating range.

    If I find that one Low-B2 can hack it on some gigs, I may attach a strap handle so I can carry my rack in one hand and cab in the other. Anyone tried doing this?

  8. bassmonkeee


    Sep 13, 2000
    Decatur, GA
    Just goes to show that you need to try one for yourself since two people can have totally opposite reactions to the same gear.

    I love my GS112 to death. I used to own two, but traded one for an EA CXL110 since I don't see myself playing any gigs in the near future where I need to be that LOUD. I have played many a happy blues/jazz gig with just the Aggie 1x12 being driven by a Mesa Walkabout, and the tone I get out of that little box is astounding. Playing with a clean guitar player, and a drummer who actually understands dynamics, I get enough sound out of 1x12 to fill a 3 floor restaurant.

    It handles my low B on my 5 and 6 string Curbows with no problem at gig volume, too. No farting at all. The only time I have gotten any flub out of the Aggies is when I ran two of them playing with a guitar player who was using 2 4x12s and a drummer who apparently had a grudge against the drums. But, then, you can't expect these cabs to perform under conditions like that.

    I'd say it's the least hifi sounding of the hifi cabs since it has some low mid girth that isn't there on the flat response cabs. But, I'd never call it muddy--and I don't really adjust the EA on my head or basses, for the most part.
  9. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    I've summoned Nightbass who owns a B2W and a GS-112.
  10. jokerjkny


    Jan 19, 2002
    NY / NJ / PHL
    lol, "summoned"

    this aint the Everquest boards, bro... :p :D

    but cool thread! really opened my eyes to some techie things.
  11. hmjuice


    May 20, 2000
    Austin, TX USA
    You’re in luck. I have 2 Aguilar D112's (8ohms) and an Acme Low B2 (4ohms). I run a QSC PLX-2402 in stereo when I use them all. So, that gives 700 watts RMS to each side. I found that the 2 Aggs together are much louder than the single Acme cab.

    I now use a single Aguilar and the LowB2 on most gigs and the sound is really full and clear. I don't have a problem with my drummer so I never have to push either cabinet and my guitarist is usually on the other side of the stage. During rehearsal I use one Aguilar cab and we use the Acme as a PA monitor and it sounds a lot better than the crappy Yamaha speakers we have. The low B on the Acme is really clean and full but when you add the Aguilar it kicks you in the chest. I play mainly funk, soul and R&B and either cab would work in small clubs but for the larger stage or outdoor stuff I need all of them to get the stage sound I like.
  12. KB

    KB Supporting Member

    Jan 13, 2000
    Chapel Hill, NC
    I use two Aguilar GS112s with my SWR SM500 amp and they are very loud when paired together (louder than some others I've tried, plus portable). They do have a kind of low-mid tome to them, but they aren't muddy. I really like them.

  13. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    When you run one Acme and one Aguilar would you say that they are of similar loudness at the same gain settings? If so that would suggest that there's about 2dB broadband efficiency difference between them.

    One thing I've noticed is that two Acme cabs sound much louder and fatter than one - not twice as big/loud but about three times as big sounding, especially when stacked vertically so they throw the sound out more and the lows only couple at really low frequencies.

    I played a gig a while back using a Warwick 1x15" driven by a 400W head in parallel with my two Acmes driven with 500W each and the 1x15" was so much quieter than the Acmes. This has led me to suspect that the efficiency of the Acmes is rather non-linear; maybe the complex crossover dissipates a surprising amount of power, but these losses get proportionally less significant as you drive more power into the cabs. I've also noticed that at low volumes the Acmes sound rather bass heavy which is totally the opposite of what the Fletcher-Munson curve would suggest - maybe this is also tied with the crossover's losses.

    I'm actually planning on getting a PLX 2402 to run my Acmes - have you tried just using one Acme driven by one side of the PLX for gigs?


  14. Lockout


    Dec 24, 2002
    On a related note, does anyone know what Aguilar means by their "Frequency response" specs? (is it flat, -3db, etc?)
  15. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    I can comment on using a 4 ohm B2 on one side of a PLX 2402...

    I was playing in a way too loud 40 something classic/alternative rock band. The guitarists used Marshalls (100 watt TSL 2x12 combo) and a Line 6 2x12 combo. No one went through the massive PA except the vocals and the drummer's Roland V Drums.

    I used the Acme B2 stacked vertically on top of an EV TL806 cabinet (8 ohm EVM 15B), one cabinet per power amp channel. I had the limiter on and the low filter on 50 Hz using a 4 string passive P Bass tuned to Eb. My tone was set up with a slight bass and treble boost and slight 200 Hz mid boost. The Acme just couldn't cut it!!!

    I had the power amp cranked into the B2 and it just farted away. I ended up turning the Acme down and pushing my sound with the EVM, which worked much better...and the power amp was set way lower too, even for this 8 ohm speaker.

    After that gig, I gave up on playing out with my B2 and started hauling a Goliath II and the EVM or just two Goliaths.

    I don't know if any of this helps, but it describes my experiences with a 4 ohm B2 getting over 700 watts.
  16. Saetia


    Mar 27, 2003
    Speaking of Aguilar, anyone have any experience with the GS412? I'm looking into adding this to my current rig, 2x12 music man and 2x10 music man. The GS412 would be replacing the 2x10 in the rig. Any help?
  17. hmjuice


    May 20, 2000
    Austin, TX USA
    The Aguilar gives you a very focused low mid punch so you can hear that more than the clean Low B2 sound. I normally place the volume of the Acme higher than that of the Aguilars. I also work with the crossover in the Acme alot depending on the stage.

    I've never had a problem with clipping or farting of the cabinet even when I turn the power amp volume all the way. I don't turn my pre-amp volume over half, so the signal never gets that hot. The last drummer, that we asked to leave, was a heavy handed guy and I never had to go to multiple cabinets during rehearsals. But guitarists are another story. I don't understand how they can just turn up after every song and their excuse is "The amp needs to be up over half in order to get my tone." Whatever... And add classic rock to it, now your ears are really going to ring for days.
  18. afroman

    afroman Supporting Member

    Aug 31, 2000
    Austin, TX
    I just got two Aguilar GS-112 a couple of weeks ago. I also noticed that I had to turn up the volume a lot more than I did with my 410. But when you do turn up, the cabs start to shine. They do have a mid scooped sound and are really bass heavy. So I cut the bass a little on my amp and turn up the mids on my bass' eq and it sounds really tight and punchy.

    I've been very surprised with how these cabs (even only one) put out a huge sound thicker and more balanced than my 410.

    Just thought I 'd lend my opinion on these wonderful little cabs...
  19. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    well i love the epi and bergie 12s but got an aggie in a guitar show trade
    i like it and it does handle 1 side of a stewart 2.1 admirably, however...........
    only complaint is the lack of high mids - kinda needs a lil boost to cut sometimes

    lol on the guitar players, mine is a plexi freak and has a wonderful sounding bogner extascy head but has the gain = tone disease..........and.....insists on using 2 4x12 cabs as "the tone is different at 8 ohms and 16 ohms"
    like the drunks can tell............
  20. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Hardly. Whenever a manufacturer quotes a frequency response min-max, be a bit dubious because it's a purely subjective range often accompanied by a spat of BS. It might say 42Hz to 16K, but it may very well be 6-12dB down at 42Hz.