Dismiss Notice

Psst... Ready to join TalkBass and start posting, make new friends, sell your gear, and more?  Register your free account in 30 seconds.

Expierienced Blues Guys, Help!

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Andrew Jones, Aug 16, 2004.


  1. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Ok I just want to start by saying I can play the blues I listen to alot of stuff and Deffinetly have a strong grasp of the musical language.


    What I need help with is the Turms/Discriptions.The Short hand band stand langauge that players use.I've searched the internet and I'm amazed that I couldnt come up with a site that delt with this.

    Heres a couple of examples of ones that I know

    "Quick Four"=Going to the four Cord on the second bar of a 12 bar.

    "Rumba Groove"=Like Aking's Crosscut saw

    "Flat Tire Groove"=Bobby Blue Blands Further on up the Road.

    "On the Five"= Starting a tune on the turaround/9the Bar of a 12 bar


    Please give song examples (multiples!)



    thanks


    Aj
     
  2. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    "two five" use a ii-V turnaround rather than V-IV sometimes implies use of jazzier chording

    "downtown shuffle" 8th note pattern R-R-oct-oct-b7-b7-5-5 sometimes called "humpty dumpty"

    "uptown shuffle" 8th note pattern R-R-5-5-b7-b7-oct-oct

    "Elmore" like Elmore James "Dust My Broom", shuffle pattern playing just roots

    "march" quarter note walk 1-3-5-6, medium tempo

    "Texas march" now play it like SRV or the T-Birds (different feel)

    '8 bar" shortened pattern, "Key To The Highway" is the most common

    "Muddy Waters" slow blues hammer b3 to maj3 tunes like "Honey Bee", "Long Distance Call" also many Jimmy Rogers tunes

    "mojo" two beat, fast like "Got My Mojo Working"

    "T-Bone" swing, usually with ii-V turnaround

    "tramp groove" Memphis soul groove like Duck Dunn, use root 5 and b7, drums play a rock beat

    "Magic Sam" play minor i instead of major I but major IV and V, like "Easy Baby"

    "killing floor" the syncopated riff from the Howling Wolf tune (the one Zeppelin turned into "Lemon Song"), drums play rock beat

    If you're still living in Boston Andrew, go jam with Stovall Brown and Jose Ramos at Wally's on Mondays and they will school you real quick :D
     
  3. WillPlay4Food

    WillPlay4Food Now With More Metal! Staff Member Supporting Member

    Apr 9, 2002
    Orbiting HQ
    *Finds this interesting and subscribes to thread*

    I don't have anything to add, other than my instructor always called 12-bar with a ii-V turnaround the 12-bar jazz/blues instead of plain old 12-bar blues.

    What would the style of blues being played on Buddy Guy's "Damn Right I've Got the Blues" (from Damn Right I Got the Blues). Sounds like a V-IV turnaround, but I'm having trouble with the part (10 bars?) leading up to the turnaround. :confused: :help:
     
  4. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Brianrost Great!!

    Thanks if you would though please write in multiple examples of alot of the grooves that you described the bass lines. Also if the Groove is difined more by the drums than the bass could you describe witch instrument is the difinitive?

    Are there any turms for different endings?


    I have another


    "On the Four" the rhythm sections in on the 5th bar of a 12 bar



    Aj
     
  5. Scooperman

    Scooperman

    May 28, 2004
    Brooklyn, NY
    I believe that the "Elmore" is sometimes called a "bump" shuffle:
    bump pa bump pa bump pa....
     
  6. Blueszilla

    Blueszilla Bassist ordinaire

    Apr 2, 2003
    The Duke City
    Thanks for the terms Brian, never knew all the names before, well some of them. Not much to add really.

    'Gospel changes' turnaround is 6,2,5.

    'New Orleans beat' like the Meters 'Mambo' , mostly I,MIII,5 this might be above but thats what I know it by.

    Maybe someday I'll make it to Boston... or Chicago.....or Memphis......anywhere..
     
  7. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    Andrew,

    One problem with examples is you need to know not just the song but the artist. I have heard people play some blues staples like "Stormy Monday" with not only different grooves but different chord changes! I've even heard guys like B.B. King do the same song in different grooves on different recordings.

    Lessee...

    Texas shuffle ---> SRV "Pride and Joy", Fabulous T-Birds "She's Tough"

    downtown shuffle ---> Freddie King "Tore Down", Jr. Wells "Hoodoo Man"

    uptown shuffle ---> Jr. Wells (I think) "Same Old Blues"

    march ---> Little Walter "Juke", "Off The Wall", "Back Track", etc.

    T-Bone --> "Hustle Is On", "T-Bone Shuffle"

    As far as drums defining the grooves, the "flat tire" is all in the drums. You basically play a march line over it while the drums accent all the upbeats. Cool groove, isn't it? I love playing it on upright you can really drive it hard. Most other blues grooves are some kind of shuffle or else a rock/funk beat (straight eighths) as far as the drummer is concerned.

    As far as endings, I've never heard terms for them per se...you'll just have to use your ears. Most include a run from I to V (could be up, could be down, could be chromatic, etc.) then either a half step UP to the 1 or DOWN to the 1. Sometimes there will be "three hits" instead (most commonly 2, b2, 1).

    Get out to the area jams and ask questions of the old timers.

    P.S. at Berklee, you can get in touch with Ralph Rosen at the library. He can recommend some recorded examples you could check out for listening. Ralph is a killer drummer, BTW.
     
  8. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Thanks again Brian



    Yes I was hoping for a exact version I relize that's important.


    Funny thing is I can play All this stuff I'm aware of the musical vocabulary. I just need the Turms so when some one say one I can make a connection with a style in my head.(Duh)



    thanks again and yes ralfs a great guy

    Aj
     
  9. dukeplaysbass

    dukeplaysbass Supporting Member

    Yow, Brianrost -- I've been playing blues for nearly 20 years, and you nailed all the ones I know (and two I never heard of -- the "uptown/downtown" thing for example...)

    Been reading your posts here and at TBL for a few years now, but didn't know that blues was your thing......I'm impressed.
     
  10. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    duke12,

    Blues is just ONE of my things. I've been hosting at blues jams for many years, that's where I learned those terms. I'm sure in different parts of the country they have different names for the same grooves.

    When I'm not playing blues you might catch me doing bluegrass, Irish, western swing, cajun, zydeco, other folkie stuff, C&W...blah blah. Used to do rock too before my hair turned silver ;) Now embarking on the endless quest to play jazz, second jazz gig ever this Saturday. Too many styles, too little time :D
     
  11. I don't mean to hijack this thread but there is some expert advice so this is where I will post it.

    What are maybe 20 blues standards? You know the ones. They appear on every bands set or reserve list, or they get requested. I have been playing in a Country band and I want to put my name out there for Blues gigs also.(Plus I need some new stuff to Woodshed with)

    Thanks
     
  12. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
  13. Perfect!

    Hijack is over.

    I like the Flat tire! I have tried to explain what a backbeat is to guitarists so many times. They just stand a stare and wait for their solo. :meh:
     
  14. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    Anyone know what these blues changes are?

    | I | IV | I bii | I |

    | IV | IV | I ii | iii biii |

    | V | V bvi | I IV | I V |

    I'm using upper and lower case just to keep it diatonic.
     
  15. Scooperman

    Scooperman

    May 28, 2004
    Brooklyn, NY

    What are you asking? I mean, these are changes to a 12 bar blues and any number of songs could use them or be reharmonized to use them. What exactly do you want to know about them?
     
  16. jive1

    jive1 Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member Commercial User

    Jan 16, 2003
    Alexandria,VA
    Owner/Retailer: Jive Sound
    Great stuff here

    One of the key feels forgotten is the boogie
    It's based on a 1, b3, and 4

    Think John Lee Hooker's "Boogie Chillun", or Magic Sam's "Feel so Good" or Booker T & MGs "Green Onions"

    Another one that's popular but I don't the "proper" name for it. I call it "stops on the one" or "stop feel". This is where you play the chord on the first beat (or the one and three, with the accent on the 1) of the first four measures. Examples are Freddy King's "Tore Down", Muddy Waters' "I'm Ready", Elmore James' "Done Somebody Wrong" or Sonny Boy Williamson's "Hey Bartender".
     
  17. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    Phil,

    That's a common set of changes used for T-Bone Walker's "Stormy Monday". Different versions of that tune use different changes (Jr. Wells did it as a straight I-IV-V) so if someone calls that tune on a gig I always ask what changes they want to use.

    The bii in bar 3 is a change used in many other slow blues by T-Bone Walker.
     
  18. Jazzin'

    Jazzin' ...Bluesin' and Funkin'

    is there a name for when the bass goes
    8-8-b7-b7-6-6-b6-b6 (8th notes swing) on the 8th bar leading to the ninth bar? i do that alot when i play blues.
    edit: it can even be at the 11th bar leading to the 12th bar.
    and it could be any intrument in the band not just the bass.
     
  19. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    Thanks Brian.
     
  20. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    It's called moving to the 5 chord. :D It may be called walking down to the 5.