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ext. cab and biamping question

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Mschiff, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    hello all: here is my rig - eden d410xlt, alesis 500 amp, vintage roland SIP-301 bass preamp. i like the sound this rig produces, but i am a fan of the mighty rigs of doom and would like to extend the bottom end size and sound. I would love to have a 115 cab on the bottom of the 410. I realize that most all the pros would say to match the 410 with another, but i think that a 15 cab would give me more of that low frequency boom i yearn for. I play progressive rock/alternative/pop in venues that range from 100 person capacity to up to 1000. the roland pre has a crossover on the back with a frequency attenuator, or full range out. how can i add a 115 to my rig without screwing up the phase? Flea uses this combination, i want to too! can i run the two cabs parallel or do i have to use the biamp feature sending the highs and lows to each side of the power amp? please help me!
  2. René_Julien


    Jun 26, 2008
    Welcome to talkbass. :)

    First off... yeap I am one of the people who think it is not such a good idea to mix speakercabs. (sorry)

    Especially in your case. That Eden cab you have already goes pretty low. You would have a hard time finding a 1x15 cab that goes even lower.

    Bi-amping is another debated issue. Nothing wrong with it, but in my opinion it is unnecessary. My opinion is that if you feel the need to biamp you are playing a cab that has poor response across the frequency spectrum and performs rather low.
    Which is not your case, your cab is awesome enough to give you any tone you want, even the "boom" you are looking for.

    Also, bi-amping and use your 4x10 to handle the high frequency is very SILLY. That's like driving a 500hp sportscar just to your mailbox up your driveway and back.
    If you are going to biamp it might be wiser to use your 4x10 for the lows and another cab (a little sealed one maybe) for your high-end.

    Bottom line, you will gain very little by using a run-off the mill 1x15 cab... or even a dedicated subwoofer.
    If you want a subwoofer in your rig... then your 4x10 becomes redundant.
    You are in PA territory now, not a bass rig.

    So yeah... the obvious suggestion you feared for: get another Eden d410XLT cab and you have an optimal rig.

    All in my opinion off course.

    If you really want to lear about bi-amping maybe someone else can chime in on that... how to do that properly, because that is not my forté.
    I'm a bassist not a soundguy. :p :)
  3. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    thanks rene. that is what i figured. it's a shame that a 410 and 115 stack wont be as effective as two 410s. it would look cool, but sound redundant i am told. I would love to grab another eden 410 and stack it up when the money is available.
    how about this - can you use the two outputs from the preamp's crossover with a 2 into 1 y-cable, run that to the power amp then to the cab? sweeping the frequency knob to attain a certain sound? or just stick to full range.
  4. Don't even try this if your power amp is stereo. All you'll do is kill the amp. Just stick to full range.
  5. René_Julien


    Jun 26, 2008
    I don't know much about bi-amping and I don't even know the preamp you have, but I think what you are proposing is redundant too. (no offence)
    Unless that preamp has two distinct different channels you want to mix (that is possible with mixer).
    Sorry if I may sound grumpy, :) but don't make your rig to be complicated.
    I'm sure that Roland might be an awesome piece of gear you own, but maybe the simplicity of a regular bass amp would make your life easier?

    On the cosmethics of a 4x10 on a 1x15... this is very subjective...
    I don't like the sight of it. Two 4x10 on each other or two 1x15 on each other (I am going the 2x 1x15 cabs route myself) I think looks more orderly.
    And looks more practical. You can use just one of your cabs for smaller gigs or practice, and two of your same cabs when you need to get loud. While still having the same tone you like in each situation.

    So my philosophy is to make your life easy, and find just one cab that you like and can do everything you want to. There are so many choices out there.
  6. Dantreige


    Oct 22, 2009
    I'm not picking on you (I agree with your post 100%), just using your quote to illustrate a problem that I see often.

    As musicians, sound and sound reinforcement priciples effect us. We do not need to be expert sound techs to benefit from having this kind of knowledge. Sooner or later it will make a difference in our musical careers. I don't care if you are a pro, a weekend warrior, or a bedroom player.

    Trying to create sounds with any instrument without this knowledge is a huge mistake, IMHO. You are trying to fight physics if you do. Sometimes you'll win. More often, you will wonder why something sounds "bad". I don't know about you, but I'd like to know why something sounds bad so I can stop doing that.

    To the OP, get another eden d410xlt if that's what you like. Mixing cabs is a "bad" thing.

    Here is some recommended reading : http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Gary-Davis/dp/0881889008

    Good luck!
  7. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    i'll stick with simplicity. i'm running 500 watts bridged mono into the eden cab which can handle 700 at its 8 ohm rating. sooner or later another 410 will be added to really move some air and be suckin all that 500 watts at 4 ohms. full range is best for me, so i'll stick with it. my preamp, roland sip-301, is a vintage analog pre with an optical compressor and lots of tone shaping possibilities. it's old school, but i found it at a friends garage where it's been sitting since the late 80's. good piece of gear and commands peoples interest.
  8. Link to D410-XLT Chart

    The chart is an RTA of a project I did in November, 2007 for bassist Chelsea Baker.
    At that time, she liked the D410-XLT, but she wanted more grunt.
    As you can seen in the chart, the XLT is pretty anemic below 60 Hz.

    I built the 18LF for her in an XLT look-and-feel cabinet.
    The box was an SBB4 tuning, tuned at 32 Hz with F3 at 43 Hz.
    The intent was maximum driver loading at low B.

    The chart shows how much more efficient is the XLT compared to the 18LF at the same voltage.
    Bi-amping with a T48 bass horn was the only real solution to boost the bottom, but cost and space prohibited this option.

    The combination lasted about two years on the road.
    She blew up both the 18LF and the XLT, and went to a Mesa Powerhouse 2x15 instead.

    OP, you aren't going to get what you want in a single 15".
    The XLT is extremely efficient above 100 Hz, so biamping a 2x15 or horn is mandatory for balance.
  9. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    maybe you want the eden xst 4x10 instead, which has one vent instead of two, and goes a good bit deeper, apparently at the cost of a couple dB efficiency.
  10. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    good info guys. thanks
  11. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    i see the frequency response of the eden xlt starts at 50hz and the xst at 35hz. my question is would adding another xlt, giving me 8x10, extend my low frequency response?
  12. JimmyM


    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    It wouldn't extend it, but it would make the low frequency response that's there more pronounced. Bigger is always better for low end response. The more air you can move, the nicer the low end sounds in every case.

    The question is do you need that 35hz frequency response? I've got a couple cabs that can do it and they sound quite good, but I tend to go with cabs with higher low end response because the bass drum takes up those deep lows in the mix already. You add bass in that range and it can make your mix muddy. Some folks like them and it works for them to use those low frequency cabs, but they're not my thing, and soundmen usually cut those frequencies anyway. But whatever you decide to use, I would use two of the same.
  13. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    i think i'm on the right track thanks to all of you. I read these threads every night for the past month before i joined. glad i did. i have learned so friggin much about all things bass i feel i could go into "GC" and give em a mental beat down. Cuz now i knows what i wants cuz my talk bass guys knows what i needs! ............... talk to you all soon!
  14. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    So....i like my eden 410xlt. i might ditch it for a 2-15 modular stack. i might score another xlt. At certain venues, on stage i seem to be lacking low end punch. i rehearse with a single 15 cab in a double garage and my bass booms out of it. 410 is a noticable difference in low freq. response. It's got all the mids a guy could ever want though. enough to sterilize a lesser man! I'm also thinking that it's the acoustics of the rooms i played too. folks in the crowd says i'm blasting. on stage it sounds a little hollow. i guess another 410 is in order. i like stacks very much anyway but probably dont need one. I have never owned a 410 before. been used to 15s and 412s. might just take some gettin used to i think. From what i learned here, its the frequencies above 60hz that matter more anyway so I should be just fine. i am starting to feel queezy. think i got
    G A S !!!!!!
  15. JimmyM


    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    Jeez, calm down before your brain explodes ;)

    Other than getting GAS, I think you're on the right track now, but the important thing to take away from this discussion is that speaker size is the least important factor in how a cab sounds. If it was important, then all speakers of a given size would sound identical.
  16. Mschiff


    Jul 22, 2012
    Memphis, TN
    thanks jimmy. would 2 pf 15s on top of each other be a suitable rig? i like the way they sound.
  17. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    the Cali Intergalctic Mind Space
    Song Surgeon slow downer software- full 4 hour demo
    A little reading/studying goes a long way.

    url=http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=542774 ] Pre-amp/Power Amp vs Head/Cab or Combo[/url]
    1) 2 ohm capable heads
    "I want a monster amp!"
    Powerful,reliable rack amps

    10s v. 12s v. 15s v. 18s
    4x10 vs. 2x10/1x15
    Benefits of vertical speaker cabs

    1x10's that do the job
    Full range cab (Carvin LS1503)
    1x15/6.5 custom cab
    Big cabs
    Low B reproduction/speakers/cab thread
    Rig for low F#

    1 Happy with my rig
    Gig rigs

    Micro-rigs of doom
    Mini-rigs of doom
    Rigs of doom
    Cheap rigs of doom

    Whatever rig you choose, you might want to check out adding a compressor and subsonic filter to your rig to keep the very low end clean and protect your speakers.
    Benefits of compression
    Compressor FAQ's and reviews
    1 Benefits of a rumble/high pass/subsonic filter

    There's also a pedal out now called The Screaminator by sfx the cuts off highs above a certain freq. to keep extraneous highs out of your sound.
  18. René_Julien


    Jun 26, 2008

    It is a very practical setup.
    In case you forgot, 15's rule. :p

    4x10's might be louder... but even if you are playing metal you don't need such a loud rig.
    Invest in a good DI and learn (this goes for your whole band) how to play with PA support.
    Me personally my rig would only need to do stage volume. Again, the notion of making your life easier so you can play any amp and cab you want live... instead of hauling RIGS OF DOOM.
    Even without PA support, I can't imagine the venue being that big that a good 2 1x15 setup wouldn't cut it.

    Even guitarists should downsize to one or two combo's these days and mic them.
    Preferably with 10" or 8" speakers because 12's for guitar are a horrible idea.

    All IMO and YMMV off course.
  19. JimmyM


    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    Sure. The cabs I was talking about in my previous post that go low are the PF115he's. Excellent cabs...not too heavy, big sound with big lows, and even the tweeter sounds great though I'm not a big tweeter fan.
  20. I suggest borrowing a decent bass wireless unit, so you can hear your bass from the audience position.
    There is a world of difference between stage tone and that heard out front.
    Especially if the cab is facing your pant legs, and not your ears.

    I assume you are playing stages without full PA support.
    If you have the opportunity, corner load your 410-XLT, as that will really boost the bottom.

    If you are playing the typical backline away from the back wall, you will have cancellations (suckouts) that are distance-specific.

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