Extended Range Cabinet. DIY build. And other questions....

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by flameworker, Dec 27, 2014.

  1. flameworker

    flameworker Guest

    Jun 15, 2014
    Landenberg, Pennsylvania
    one day....
    Lots of questions, kinda branchy thread, but i dont want to create 10 different threads.

    Everyone keeps telling me that there is no need for an 18.
    But I read the specs on speakers, and the Freq range of most 15's is at lowest 40-whatever
    18" speakers are more like 22-whatever,
    I really hope I don't need an 18 to get a rich low b.

    I recently was able to compare a 2 10 and a 1 15 head on, both B&C neo's, the 15 was better in every way. To me.

    I REALLY want a cabinet that can give me full range Low B.
    I am looking at these speakers as the low end part, intending to add a couple 5" or a 6"+1" or whatever.

    Sensitivity is also important, as my bast sounding amp is 160 watts. It sounds best all the way up, the 12ax7 tube doesn't really start to compress and warm the signal til around 8 or so.

    If I add a separate sub I was thinking about using a plate amp, making my system modular so different rooms get different rigs. I only have a subaru outback, so the sub box will need more transpotation planning too. I miss my 4wd astro so much...

    I could use some input. I don't understand everything. Why would 8 ohm be better than 4 ohm if my amp is 100 watts at 8 ohm but 160 watts at 4....
    Probably need another 500 watts for the sub, 140w is plenty for mid bass. I was thinking plate amp

    ONE more question, Could I use that Dayton 18, ALONE (or with the 6 and the 1,) as a quality bass speaker?

    Also I want to be loud, or quiet with good punch and bass, I want to shake your bones, and have cello like harmonics....

    Is there much difference in the sound of these two speakers? Or is the price difference due to cast vs steel basket, and terminals. they both have 7 year guarantees.
    I might be able to get the pro used cheap, but its 12+ years old...so...
    with my low power amp (its a flying mole with a 12ax7 preamp) the 101 sensitivity should give me the volume I want, I'm pretty sure if I go lower than say 96 I wont have the power I need.
    Whats up with delta vs Kappa? Just one is 400w the other 500? that doesn't matter in my case.

    What about these "bass speakers" I feel like Pro Audio sounds better but the more i learn, the less I find I know.

    I was thinking this dayton 18, with a 500w plate amp (I dont think sound quality matters at those low freq.
    Then A Kappa Pro 15A in a 3.5Cu cab vented

    then a Kappa 6 or a JBL or something sealed
    Then a 1" Bose (or something, I have a bunch of 100watt 1" speakers)

    This specs good as a single speaker, no tweeter needed.

    This looks even better, says 34hz-5000 are these measurements universal?

    I liked this speaker in a TKO (the new tko is nothing like the ones I grew Up with!! i) It shook the whole store at a mild volume,,but was missing something...and cranked up it seemed to start to break up.

    I was told to steer away from the C
    The classic. expensive tho

    I like what people have to say.
    I'm thinking a Kappa 15a

    Dayton Audio DCS450-4 18" Classic Subwoofer 4 Ohm

  2. DIY and you only need to go down to B? Look up TL-606 plans, and drop in a Peavey 1505-8dt, Eminence 3015, Faital Pro 15PR400, or EVM Pro 15B.

    Those response values are of only so much (very little) use. You need to consider the design of the cab as a whole to know what kind of performance you are looking at.
    monsterthompson likes this.
  3. El Spearo

    El Spearo

    Jun 12, 2012
    Wellington, NZ
    Why don't you just build a fearful 15/6/1? Plans are free. I have been reading heaps of threads, reviews, watching videos and gave finally decided I'm building a 12/6/1, and another one later next year. Those 2 and my little shuttle 6.0 and I think I'll be set. My 2 cents
    flameworker likes this.
  4. flameworker

    flameworker Guest

    Jun 15, 2014
    Landenberg, Pennsylvania
    one day....
    What software can I get to model this stuff? I am finally understanding what freq I need, now i need to get em,.
  5. Just curious. What frequency do you think that is?

    Lots of different software out there, some free, some not. You will have to do some research on which program you feel comfortable trusting.
  6. Flameworker, you have kindled a fire which has gone out.

    Low B fundamental takes a huge amount of power and driver excursion to produce on a level that is worthwhile next to an unamplified drumset.

    So think again.
  7. OP....you remind me of me! I'm often dissatisfied with commercial 'me too' designs that follow the herd, and this often convinces me that I need 'a better mousetrap' and that I'm capable of designing something that meets my unique needs.

    Usually, a small amount of research shows that, unsurprisingly, in a big wide world there are hundreds if not tens of thousnads of people who have identified the same 'unique' criteria and, furthermore, there are tens of those people who have theoretical and practical audio engineering skills that have taken a lifetime to perfect. These turn out to be the people who have already devoted thousands of hours of planning, experimentation and prototyping to achieve the design goals that I had convinced myself I was alone in trying to resolve.

    My dissatisfaction with the status quo and my attempts to build myself something better are not a bad thing, they teach me a great deal in the process and I've ended up with a Barefaced 15/6 design for my bass cab, Bill Fitzmaurice Jack 12 Lites for PA and Bill Fitzmaurice Wedgehorn 8s for floor monitors, all of which give me better performance for my needs than the ubiquitous commercial offerings and have educated me in the process of choosing and building those systems.

    I'm starting from the same place as you, except that rather than starting from spec sheets of individual components where I barely understand the complexity and interaction of Thiele Small parameters, I'm starting with the credentials and reputation of knowledgeable people who have trodden the road I want to go down and built that roadway for me.
  8. Rick James

    Rick James Inactive

    Feb 24, 2007
    New Jersey
    +1. I have a BFM Omni 15, and it's even better than Barefaced or fearful 15/6. But most of the time I don't use it, because its more than I need. My daily go to cab is a BFM Jack 12. Both are better than any store bought cabs. I've learned a lot about speakers in the last ten years, enough that I could design my own. But when I can take advantage of the skills of a guy whose been designing cabs since Entwhistle played with the Who at Woodstock and really has forgotten more about speakers than I'll ever learn why bother?
  9. Scottkarch


    Sep 11, 2012
    I'll wait for input from others but I think 160 watts isn't enough power for a loud low B. Just digging around the Internet I found a Wikipedia entry talking about sound reproduction and it seems like they were talking more about stereos rather than instrument amplification.

    For most audio applications more power is needed at low frequencies. This requires a high-power amplifier for low frequencies (e.g., 200 watts for 20–200 Hz band), lower power amplifier for the midrange (e.g., 50 watts for 200 to 1000 Hz), and even less the high end (e.g. 5 watts for 1000–20000 Hz). Proper design of a bi/tri amplifier system requires a study of driver (speaker) frequency response and sensitivities to determine optimal crossover frequencies and power amplifier powers.

    So 50 watt mids vs 200 watts for lows. i have never used tube amps and maybe they have way more headroom than the current class d amps but I'd still be worried that 160 watts might be 1/10 of the power you might need for high volume fundamental B. 31 Hz is way low and seems it would take a mountain of power. See if you can get TS parameters for that 18 and start running various cabinet sizes and ports. Se how many dB down you'll be at 31 Hz. Jooles4001 makes a really good point About designing new speakers vs using plans by audio experts. From a learning exercise it would be tremendous. It may or may not be practical.
  10. Rick James

    Rick James Inactive

    Feb 24, 2007
    New Jersey
    It's enough if you have a high efficiency speaker. With store bought you don't really know, because no one publishes charts that tell you exactly how many dBs you get out per watt in at every frequency. Most DIY designs do have charts, and if you have questions chances are you can get the answers straight from the designer. A 3dB increase in efficiency is the same as doubling your watts, so if you don't have a big amp a more efficient speaker can make all the difference. Look at the Omni 15 chart compared to a 4x10 on this page, the difference at 40 hz is 6dB, that makes a 160 watt amp as loud as 640 watts into the 4x10. The reason I don't bother lugging my Omni 15 to most gigs is that is goes a lot louder than I need, and I can get away with the much smaller Jack 12 instead. When I play in the streets of Montreal during Jazz Festival with no PA my Omni comes out of hibernation, and it never fails to deliver over a whole city block.
    rogypop and Scottkarch like this.
  11. Scottkarch


    Sep 11, 2012
    Thank you. Yes that makes a lot of sense. I wonder what the sensitivity of the 18 he mentioned is at 31 Hz. Obviously depends on the cabinet design but I wonder how flat a response you can get down to 31Hz and how much power that would take. Thanks.
  12. JACink


    Mar 9, 2011
    @flameworker, you are either a very fast DIYer, or spend too much time researching the wrong things.

    I don't mean to offend you, as many of the questions and ideas that you have I can relate to.

    Finally, instead of asking so many random questions (as you seem to have lots of random posts), I decided to do some research. Join forums such as Bill Fitzmaurice and Greenboy, and read as much as possible. You will learn a lot about lots of things, but mainly you will find the results of experiments that others have already done, which will help you save a lot of time, and even more money.

    Obviously there is always the possibility that you could invent the holy grail, but if you learn what doesn't work first, then you can spend more time on things that may well be good.

    (IMO, IMHO, YMMV etc. etc.)
  13. BassmanPaul

    BassmanPaul Inactive

    Flameworker, before you even start a DIY build please understand that it is not a cheap road to follow. Done properly a home brew will cost way more than you can buy a commercial speaker cabinet for. It also takes a lot of work and a lot of love to make it right. In your place I would look at the fEARful plans as these have all the details already optimized.

    I use Acme speaker cabinets and they do handle a Low B at power. To do this, as they have to obey the laws of Physics, they are inefficient. I am feeding each of my 2x10s with up to 500W. Whatever route you eventually follow it should include replacing your amplifier with something more hefty. To get a Low B loud you require power. If you don't have that power anything else you do is wasted effort.
  14. Please take this constructively: It is evident reading your post that you are quite a ways from being knowledgeable enough to undertake the design being attempted. You have obviously done some substantial research, but your goal of low B fundamental reproduction is extremely ambitious. There are very few commercial designs that succeed at reproducing deep fundamentals at giggable sound pressure levels. The only cabs capable of low B fundamentals (and that are portable) to my knowledge are those of the Acme line. They achieve this in a reasonable cab size by trading off some efficiency. For high spl gigs you will need multiple cabs and a high power amp.

    With respect to the low end capabilities of 15 and 18 inch drivers, most pro 15's are good 50-60 Hz drivers, while 18's are typically good 40-50 Hz drivers. In general, do not pay attention to the frequency response spec (like 20-3000 Hz) when trying to evaluate the low bass capability of a driver. You need a combination of Fs, Qts, Vas, sensitivity and Xmax, and a knowledge of how these interact in order to just get a start. You will need this information and understanding in order to use loudspeaker design software (like winisd) effectively.

    As others have pointed out, the power, cab size and driver requirements for achieving usable low B fundamental reproduction are formidable, and generally impractical. You would be well off to aim for solid 60 Hz response and to rely on the 2nd harmonic below that. Most of the better commercial cabs take this approach. They take advantage of the brains ability to fill in the fundamental based on the reproduced harmonics.

    If you want to learn this stuff, try starting with a relatively simple design. If your goal is simply to acquire a cab that will reproduce the low B fundamental, consider just purchasing a cab (or cabs). In between, consider building a high quality readily available design like one of the fEARfuls. Most players have never experienced this level of performance. If you have not heard one, you owe it to yourself to audition one before attempting something more ambitious.
  15. IMG_20390209261924.jpeg

    Works just fine producing a low B loudly.
    flameworker and JACink like this.
  16. flameworker

    flameworker Guest

    Jun 15, 2014
    Landenberg, Pennsylvania
    one day....
    The Fearfuls Look about perfect. The only thing Is $$ I need to substitute a KappaPro 15A for the 3015, The specs seem close enough to not need much adjustment, maybe a bit more or less fill, or an inch plus or - in the venting.

    Luckily we have 2 full sheets of good 1/2" plywood left over from a bathroom remodeling, and about a sheet of the really good birch stuff. A bunch of 2x3's some aluminum corner bracing stuff, all kinds of crap.
    Plus there is tons of stuff i can use for Tolex laying about, Pickup truck spray liner might be good for the inside surfaces as besides looking cool, black, and bumpy, its also sound deadening, rubberized and strong. The outside probably just plain black or whatever is on hand. I was thinking about a boat painting tech that looks really nice, where you glue down canvas and then paint that (it looks better than it sounds) a nice dark tan, with black corners and edges, and maybe teak handle indents. Nice handles and casters are really important, I have a hand truck, but sometimes you don't have time to go get it.

    I guess I have to give up on having a cab that can give me a low B, and concentrate more on just getting a good sound, let the PA person deal with the Lows.

    Hopefully I will find a cabinet I can live with in the next few days, and put off building til i learn more.

    I already miss the blissful ignorance before i knew about things like Xmax and Sensitivity..back when it was just plug it in and, "Oh,.. good", or.."no,.. Sucks". yep,that was last week.

    I was trying out one of the new Peavy TKO amps, and was amazed at how good it sounded (compared to 1980's tko that is), right up until I cranked it up , once it was loud, it sounded rough. Not terrible, but "off".
    Looks like I will need more wattage too.
  17. The 3015LF is ververy different than the 3015 or the kappapro.
  18. flameworker

    flameworker Guest

    Jun 15, 2014
    Landenberg, Pennsylvania
    one day....
    2 15's huh. damn. Full circle back to big again....

    What software is available to model this stuff?
  19. T_Bone_TL


    Jan 10, 2013
    SW VT
    If you learn nothing else here, learn that swapping drivers is almost never a good idea with a well thought out design. The design is based around the driver.

    If you can learn two things, learn that the fundamental is not nearly as important as you think it is. If you want to move on up to a Bi-Amped rig with basshorns, feel free, but they are inconvenient and really not needed to get the job done.Save it for when you have roadies and a tractor trailer to carry them in, if that happens. Not having them won't be what limits your career.
    Bass_Pounder likes this.
  20. flameworker

    flameworker Guest

    Jun 15, 2014
    Landenberg, Pennsylvania
    one day....
    Has anyone even considered building something like Orange has, with the 2 speakers, one right in front of the other? Isobaric, I tried the 2 12, and couldnt figure out where the other 12 was til i got home and looked it up.

    I wasn't sold on it, i don't know if the price put me off, or if the 15" neo markbass right next to it sounded better.

    THis keeps getting more and more expensive the more I look into it.