Fix it or replace it

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by zenofanger, Sep 8, 2018.


  1. zenofanger

    zenofanger

    Dec 6, 2016
    Indiana
    Ok so after a slew of responses to my other thread on tone (and having my rig checked again) I've come to the conclusion that my beloved eden d212xlt has a blown speaker.

    I replaced one speaker with an eminence delta 12a back in January but should have listened to my tech and swapped out both of them.

    At half volume it sounds great. But pushing to be heard in my new group and it sounds like bumpkis. Currently competeing against 2 4x10 half stacks and a 11 piece kit so half volume doesn't cut it.

    Unfortunately they don't make my cab anymore and it'd cost just as much to by a new cab as it would to buy stock replacement speakers (at $225 a piece). A replacement eminence delta would be around $80 and give me working matching speakers but then goes the whole "you can't just put a new speaker into a cab" tech stuff that I don't understand.

    Any suggestions?

    Btw I won't by used amp gear. Waaaay to many bad experiences
     
  2. Any new 2x12s out there for $450?

    Running a single driver in a two driver cab is right up there with, “you can’t just put a new speaker into a cab.” It may even be worse?

    The understanding part has to do with cabs being built and tuned to work with the drivers that will go in them.
    Unlike guitar speakers that have open backs and just work without much fuss, with bass you have to very careful about controling cone movement. If you simply drop new drivers in without doing the math to see if the driver is suitable for that cab, and doing the appropriate retuning as needed, you aren’t controlling cone/voice coil movement, damage is possible. Likewise by removing one driver, or even just disconnecting it, you upset the balance between drivers and their cabs. Bass cabs and their speakers are a system made to work together. Some speakers are designed to work well in sealed cabs. Others are designed for ported.

    Hope that helps a bit with the understanding?
     
  3. zenofanger

    zenofanger

    Dec 6, 2016
    Indiana
    It does. I'm still using both speakers right now but im keeping the volume low. Its only when I push past the halfway point that distortion kicks in. (Mic at rehearsal and None use at home) None of this ideal but until I get this sorted out I gotta make due. The replacement came recommended by my tech who has a very good reputation and has worked on some of my buddies gear.

    Peavey has a 2x12 in my budget that im considering but on the fence about since its 8ohms.
     
  4. The difference in loudness when using 4 Ohms vs 8 is for the most part insignificant with a solid state amp. And not a deal at all with tubes. The appeal for many, of an 8 Ohm cab is that you can add a second cab of the same type and pretty much double your volume. (This assumes your amp will handle 4 Ohms.)

    There are two ways to get roughly double the loudness out of your rig.
    Increase the power going to your cab by a factor of 10. Example: 100 watts to 1000 watts.
    If you increased power from 100 to say 150 watts (typical going from 8 to 4 Ohms) without increasing speaker area, you will barely notice a difference.
    Or
    Double up on your speaker cone surface. Move twice the air.

    Adding speakers is a much more efficient way to get louder.
    It’s just how our ears work.
     
  5. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    The only way your going to get your D212XLT to sound like new is to put the proper drivers in it.

    The Delta 12A has only 2.4mm of Xmax. IMHO, Not a good candidate for high power bass applications.

    See attached cabinet guide for the Delta 12A
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Nighttrain1127

    Nighttrain1127 Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2004
    Near Worcester MA
    If the Peavey 212 you are talking about is the PVH212 it is a very good cab although a little dark and RMS power Handling is about 450 watts. It is a very musical cab and has the best sounding Horn/tweeter I have ever heard in a Bass Cab.
     
    EatS1stBassist and zenofanger like this.
  7. zenofanger

    zenofanger

    Dec 6, 2016
    Indiana
    Ill be honest I couldn't understand the charts and specs but I do get what you're saying. What would be the downfall of this replacement. Would it be a bad sound? Blowing the new speaker, structural damage, distortion, damage to the head?
    The one I already have in seems to be holding up ok but then again I've just recently started using it for more than at home practice.

    That's the one. How well will it pair with an ampeg pf 500? Will it be loud enough without damaging anything or having to add another cab?
     
  8. Nighttrain1127

    Nighttrain1127 Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2004
    Near Worcester MA
    With the 300-350 watts that amp can develop at 8 ohms you should be fine if your band does not play crazy loud. I have run one with a Fender Super Bassman 300 and it gets as loud as I will ever need and then some. So I would guess it will get loud enough IMHO YMMV. The plus of the 8 ohm is if you need more speaker you can add another 212 with no problem.
     
  9. mbelue

    mbelue

    Dec 11, 2010
    Any 2x12 is going to seriously struggle against that.

    You need a lot more cabinet. 8ohms or 4 ohms doesn't really matter.

    4x12s, 8x10, or the world's most efficient 2x15 is where you want to be.

    You are blowing speakers cause you don't have enough cabinet.

    Also might want to add a HPF to maximize the output from your amp to the limit your speakers can handle.

    Good luck dude, I've been where you are and it ain't fun.
     
  10. BogeyBass

    BogeyBass Inactive

    Sep 14, 2010
    Pair beta 12a2 would work.
    Way better than deltas for power handling.

    2x15 or 410 is normal standard for half stack and drummer volumes.

    2x12 or 4x12 being newer standard.

    People hate on Acoustic around here. But I'll bet the well received neo line of cabinets will outperform the current situation.

    I understand the only new approach.
    But likewise there is a sea of used perfectly good ampeg 4x10s
     
    EatS1stBassist and zenofanger like this.
  11. RedJag

    RedJag

    Mar 2, 2016
    San Jose, CA
    I’d replace the speaker, that seems like a no brainer. I’d also recommend surveying the market to see if any speakers would compliment the speaker you already put in to give a fuller/better sound rather than just the same model speaker.
     
    EatS1stBassist likes this.
  12. Relsom

    Relsom Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2013
    The Old Dominion
    ....And there's one in the classifieds right now for $400. I have no affiliation with this ad. I just saw it and thought you could use the info.
    That being said, I'd look a bit harder for a decent match for replacing those drivers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  13. Nighttrain1127

    Nighttrain1127 Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2004
    Near Worcester MA
    I would agree that whatever you do right now you are going to need more speakers instead of more power to compete with those guitar rigs and not keep blowing speakers. Also second the recommendation of a HPF so the amp is not wasting power with sound you can't use. Will also give your speakers a fighting chance
     
  14. arbiterusa

    arbiterusa

    Sep 24, 2015
    SoCal
    I’m seeing used GK neo 2x12 at GC.com for 299. One looks like NOS (GC does this often). 45 day no BS return policy. You need a pair of them, though. No way just one is going to keep up with that sonic environment you describe your stage as. Pretty sure they also have a used version of your Eden, they usually do.
     
    Plucky The Bassist likes this.
  15. Nighttrain1127

    Nighttrain1127 Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2004
    Near Worcester MA
    The OP said he will not buy used gear. And you are correct any 212 That is not one of the super cabs is going to strain to even come close to keeping up . The super cabs are in a different league and one of them would stand a good chance of at least keeping up but at pretty much the cost of 2 212's
     
  16. mbelue

    mbelue

    Dec 11, 2010
    None of the super 212s will do it with an Ampeg pf500.
    Maybe a pf800 or an svt 7pro.

    OP doesn't have the wattage regardless of 2x12 quality.
     
  17. zenofanger

    zenofanger

    Dec 6, 2016
    Indiana
    I've considered going to a 4x10 if needed, would prefer to stick with 12s if possible. But I haven't seen any 4x12 cabs. Going to 2 cabs would be an issue though as I don't have a way to move that much gear...or funds for it.
     
  18. Nighttrain1127

    Nighttrain1127 Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2004
    Near Worcester MA
    GK makes the Neo 412 and I don't know if they still make them but Mesa used to make a 412. Also a 410 is not going to give you much more than a 212. You would need a 610 at least. And depending on the cabs efficiency the 412 or 610 might be enough with the 500 watts . It is not just about how much power but how much air you move with speaker surface with that power. More speakers = louder to a point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  19. mbelue

    mbelue

    Dec 11, 2010
    Can you take away half of your guitarist's speakers?
     
  20. BadExample

    BadExample

    Jan 21, 2016
    Injiana
    Worse experiences than this? ;)
     
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