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For aircraft enthusiasts: The Me-109 and the Spitfire with the other's engine.

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by Blazer, Feb 22, 2014.

  1. Blazer


    Nov 27, 2003
    The Netherlands
    Rogue luthier employed at Knooren Handcrafted bass guitars
    Eternal rivals, even to this day it remains debatable which was the better plane, the Bayersche Flugzuegbau Messerschmitt 109 or the Vickers-Armstrong Supermarine Spitfire.

    But the funny thing is that both those planes have had things happen that also happened to the other plane.

    For example: They both flew with the other's engine.
    This Mk.V Spitfire was captured intact in France in 1942 and transported to Rechlin AFB for testing. The boffins decided that it would be interesting to see how the aircraft would perform if they would switch its Rolls Royce Merlin engine in favor of a Dailmler Benz DB601.
    One thing that became apparent right away is that it improved the cockpit's visibility over the nose massively, since the Daimler is an inverted V-12.
    This is profile of a stock Spitfire Mk.V
    And here's the Daimler fitted Spitfire
    The Spitfire quickly proved it self to be a pleasant flier and popular by the test pilots, sadly, it was destroyed during a bombing run on Rechlin.

    These are Hispano Ha-1112 "Buchon" fighters of the Spanish Air force.
    Now the Buchon is a Me-109G "Gustav" model built in Spain but with the stock of Daimler-Benz engines drying up, the Spanish were forced to look elsewhere to power their "Hundertnuens" and after at first fitting local engines which were underpowered, settled on fitting Rolls Royce Merlins.
    Keep in mind what I just said about how the visibility out of the cockpit of a Spitfire improved when the Germans put a Daimler in that plane. Fitting a merlin into an Me 109 radically changed its appearance.
    This is the profile of a German built "Gustav" with the Daimler engine.
    And this is a "Buchon" it's the same aircraft and the Merlin makes a HUGE difference.
    This "Buchon" shows the higher nose to very good effect.

    But the "Buchon" proved to be a slamming success and many "Messerschmitt" currently flying is actually a Buchon, either with a Dailmer retrofitted or with its stock Rolls Royce Merlin still in place.
  2. tplyons


    Apr 6, 2003
    Madison, NJ
    Very cool Blazer, keep 'em coming!
  3. GKon

    GKon Supporting Member, Boom-Chicka-Boom

    Feb 17, 2013
    Queens, NY
    Great stuff! Thanks for posting!
  4. Stewie26

    Stewie26 Supporting Member

    Thanks for posting Blazer.
    I am also an aviation buff. Just curious how many other TBer's are also.
  5. Basshappi


    Feb 12, 2007
    Very interesting. I come from a family of pilots and have uncles that flew in WWII. I spent a lot of time flying in various types of aircraft as a child.
    I have always had a special love for the WWII era aircraft.
    Very interesting how the engines changed the profiles so significantly. You pointed out that the pilots like the improved forward visability, where there atttendant inprovements or detriments to the performance of either one?
  6. SoVeryTired

    SoVeryTired Endorsing nothing, recommending much

    Jul 2, 2011
    Milton Keynes, UK
    Nice! I've always loved military aircraft, and particularly WW2. For me, a great (free) day out is going to the RAF museum at Hendon - and the rest of the family agree. The Battle of Britain exhibition is particularly good, with examples of the key British and German planes on show.
  7. tplyons


    Apr 6, 2003
    Madison, NJ
    I am too, more than your average guy, but not as much as Blazer, that's for sure!

    I guess growing up on Air Force Bases with F-111A's, F-15's, and later C-130's, KC-135's, and C-5's flying overhead will do that to you!
  8. TBird1958

    TBird1958 As a matter of fact....I am your Queen! Staff Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    Seattle Washington
    Endorsing Artist Mike Lull T Bass pickups
    Very cool post - As always informative!

    As designs (aircraft and powerplant) each had good and bad aspects, it's a relatively unknown point that gave the Spitfire (and all Allied aircraft) a distinct advantage - high quality very high octane fuel 110-or better, usually refined in the U.S. No facilities even existed on the European continent to get anywhere near that kind of high quality fuel.
  9. Milk


    Sep 16, 2013
    Montreal, Canada
    I'm a military aviation enthusiast but it's an interest that was much stronger in my childhood and teens. I used to be pretty big on combat flight sims too for this reason....
  10. Stewie26

    Stewie26 Supporting Member

    I had no idea that the octane ratings back then were that high.
    Today, the aviation fuel that you buy at your local airport is 100 octane. Sometimes for the fun of it I will mix some aviation fuel in with my car gas but that's another thread.
  11. Blazer


    Nov 27, 2003
    The Netherlands
    Rogue luthier employed at Knooren Handcrafted bass guitars
    Slightly off topic, there's a new comic book series called "Kid Lucky" which is about the childhood of Lucky Luke, which has all kinds of tidbits about how cowboy life really was in the wild west.

    One of the things they mentioned was moonshine and how the people who made that illegal whiskey, for the heck of it, would add gunpowder to the mix.

    Firewater indeed...
  12. basspraiser

    basspraiser Jammin for the Lamb! Supporting Member

    Dec 8, 2006
    Chicago - NW Burbs
    Very. Cool....thanks for the informative posts!

    I too am a huge WWII aviation buff....even though model building has been off the radar for quite a few years i still have several built and unbuilt kits around....mostly in boxes....

    There is s huge fly in at Oshkosh that i used to frequent every couple of years....now it is about every 5 years....

    The fly in is one of the biggest collection of fighters in the world.
  13. 96tbird

    96tbird PLEASE STAND BY Supporting Member

    Loving these hybrids! Hmm, any examples of Daimler powered P-51's?

    BMW (FW 190) powered p-47's, etc?
  14. TBird1958

    TBird1958 As a matter of fact....I am your Queen! Staff Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    Seattle Washington
    Endorsing Artist Mike Lull T Bass pickups

    You're correct about the 100 Octane, during the war fuel was
    "boosted" by the addition of xylidine and cumene as well as butylene and isobutane enhancers. The fuel was still just 100 Octane but the performance number went over 130. Allied aircraft had far superior fuel than any of the Axis countries - and the refining capability.
    I highly recommend Robert Goralski's "Oil and War" a very book on the importance of oil in WWII.
  15. Stewie26

    Stewie26 Supporting Member

    You know your stuff. By chance, are you a chemical engineer?
  16. TBird1958

    TBird1958 As a matter of fact....I am your Queen! Staff Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    Seattle Washington
    Endorsing Artist Mike Lull T Bass pickups

    I wish I was! But, no - I work in the Lighting Industry.
    I am an avid reader of WWII History like quite a few of us here. "Oil and War" is a fascinating read as it describes the war from the viewpoint of a quest for this important rescource. The Germans and Japanese planned conquests in some degree or another to obtain Oil ( I don't know what the Italians were up to, lol!).
    Anyway, while I always enjoy reading about the men and machines of WWII, it's interesting how much something as basic as the quality of fuel affected the conflict, the Germans never reliably had fuel with an Octane rating better than 91, and always struggled with supply - The Allies really never wanted for fuel for aircraft in either theater, as U.S. logistics were pretty much the envy of every other nation. The exception being the rapid advance of land forces across France, and that was more of a question of outrunning our own ability to deliver, not actually having it.
  17. Nitpicking: When was *Vickers-Armstrong* a prefix to Supermarine? I know companies merged, got bought out, went out of business and subcontracted left and right, but I've not heard that combination. NOT disputing, requesting Info- clearly, you know your stuff.
  18. Also, did any early/prototype 109's ever sport RR powerplants? I l know that well before war broke out Germany had some American engines in a few aircraft (Wrights in the FW-200 Condor IIRC.. maybe the Junkers Ju-52..?)
  19. TBird1958

    TBird1958 As a matter of fact....I am your Queen! Staff Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    Seattle Washington
    Endorsing Artist Mike Lull T Bass pickups

    I don't have the specifics in front of me as I'm at work, but yes, you're correct - At least one early variant ME-109flew with an RR engine.
  20. DerHoggz

    DerHoggz I like cats :| Banned

    Feb 13, 2009
    Western Pennsylvania
    Is the propeller directly attached to the crankshaft, or is there gearing between them?