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Frequency Response

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by GeorgesEric, Apr 11, 2021.


  1. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    There will be some additional low frequency extension due to the coupling of the radiating area.

    There’s a lot more to this than just these numbers.
     
  2. musicman556

    musicman556 Gold Supporting Member

    Jul 3, 2019
    Smyrna, TN
    The line further up where you said one cab has 2k more freq response because of more drivers doesn't make sense to me, tbh.

    Stepping back for a moment, OP has us all trying to discuss something... I don't really even know what yet.... based off simply configuration and freq response data, so right off the bat this is all conjecture. We have no idea of the cabinet design or type of driver in each of these cabs. We might be making the assumption that the 810 has greater low frequency extension because it has twice as many speakers, when in reality it may be due to different drivers or cabinet design. We don't have enough data to really draw any conclusions at all... about anything, really. Haha!

    Yes, I absolutely agree that in general more speakers = more volume, but this bare bones freq response comparo doesn't give us enough info to fairly attribute differences to any single factor.

    I think a 2khz (5khz v 7khz) difference in upper end response is probably tipping us off to the idea that completely different drivers are being used in these cabs, not just more in one box vs the other.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
  3. JeezyMcNuggles

    JeezyMcNuggles

    Feb 23, 2018
    Santa Maria, CA
    I suck, but nobody really notices
    Yup. Im pretty sure he's really trying to decide what ampeg cab to go with, but doesn't exactly know what those numbers mean. That's based off the 810 that's two 410s with no tweeter. And then, when comparing specs on the SVT line of cabs, he found a few things that made him scratch his head. Just like he did to us when he made this post.

    On the 2 kHz increase, if you didn't know that more speakers also increase your high end, not just your low end, you've never split a fridge. The reason the fridge doesnt have a tweeter, is because it doesn't need one. Adding the extra speakers boosts the clarity exponentially. It's astonishingly clear. Not only because it's up at your ears. Sitting on the ground, would yield the same results if that were the case. I meant it when I said more speakers = more sound. It doesn't just add low end (like I've been told here). It adds more of everything. Makes sense doesn't it? Even if I don't know the science, or understand the physics behind it all. That still makes sense, right?

    Plug into the bottom half, then run the whole thing. You'd be amazed. Not that one half isnt clear, it is, but it is so much warmer and less defined than both together.
     
    spatters and musicman556 like this.
  4. musicman556

    musicman556 Gold Supporting Member

    Jul 3, 2019
    Smyrna, TN
    No, I have never split a fridge, but great info! I have run multiple 410s, never a single 810.

    In this specific set of data the cab with a 5khz upper limit was the 115, and the 7khz upper limit was the 810. I'd go out on a limb and say those are different drivers. ;)
     
    JeezyMcNuggles likes this.
  5. Bonsist

    Bonsist

    Jan 28, 2021
    810:
    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.wwbw.com%2Fis%2Fimage%2FMMGS7%2F601039000001484-00-1000x1000.jpg

    410:
    ?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.jpg

    Each IR's frequency response will tell you if there was a tweeter since tweeters get into higher frequency ranges than cabs without tweeters. Didn't mean to confuse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  6. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Increasing the number of drivers does not increase the high frequency response of a cabinet.
     
    Luigir, dkelley, gln1955 and 8 others like this.
  7. 808State

    808State

    Dec 30, 2020
    Most bass specific drivers like a 15" or 10" that have good excursion to handle low frequency.
    Tend to not have much response over 2.5 to 3k.
    Some extend to 4k and is usually pretty impressive if they do

    So a cab with no tweeter that claims a 5 to 7 k -3dB response is pretty far fetched.
    If they actually do, I would be interested in knowing what magical speakers they have.

    It is possible to get 5 to 6k response from a 10 or 15"
    but the trade off in the driver design would be very little low-end
    and the power handling would not be very good below 100hz.

    Keep in mind when we are talking a Standard 20 or 21 fret Fender bass
    the highest note on the neck is D4# or E4
    So the highest fundamental is 311 to 329 Hz

    Of course notes have timbre or harmonics 1st 2nd and 3rd being most audible
    3rd harmonic being 933 Hz
    and the 4th 5th and 6th harmonic add the extra clarity, but not as audible
    so 6th harmonic would be 1,866 Hz

    Go further to 8th harmonic 2,488 Hz

    So pretty standard speakers around 2 to 3k is more than fine for bass.
    If you need to hammer the G string 21st fret all night.

    In reality players that want a lot of treble or acoustic players that want very high string clarity. The system needs to realistically go to 5 to 6K for bass. which is at the very bottom of a tweeter response.
    Claiming 10 to 17K response for a bass cabinet is pure absurd
    only thing to hear would be preamp or comparator hiss
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  8. spatters

    spatters

    Mar 25, 2002
    @GeorgesEric Those numbers are meaningless without a threshold value. Are those ranges the 3db points? 6db? 12db?
    Why are they all within 5Hz on the bass end for vastly different drivers and cabinets?
    How are they getting 7K out of a cabinet with no tweeter?
    Because they're not real numbers.
    They're meaningless marketing copy masquerading as statistics.
     
    GrOOvinGalaxy likes this.
  9. Perhaps a picture might help:
    jazzbass-sansamp---TC66.png
    This is a homemade frequency response test of a jazzbass. On the left there is a graph for low E tone, on the right for octave G on G string. Frequencies are on the horizontal, 'loudness' in dB is on the vertical axis. The darker line is clear signal (DI box to USB interface), the lighter line is what the speakers of my rig actually play (condenser miced to USB interface).

    You can see what frequencies my bass actually plays. Yours, of course, will be similar. You can read, for example:
    - the 'tonal information' is in the peaks. The lowest peak is 40, another 80, another 120, another 160 Hz etc. - following the harmonic series.
    - anything above, say, 5000 kHz, is of no importance, being some 100dB quieter than the peak.
    - anything below, say, 40 Hz, is atonal rumble (many HPF fans cut it all off around here on TB)

    If you look at the lighter 'rig' line, you can see:
    - for the high G, both 'rig' and 'DI' lines are nearly identical
    - for low E, there's a significant drop at the low end around 40 Hz.

    Now. I'm using two superlight homemade cabs containing B&C 6NDL38 drivers. If you look at manufacturer's frequency graph, you can read that the speaker starts to 'drop down' at frequencies below 100Hz. It still can play them, but the lower the quieter. If you look at my low E graph however, you can see that the real impact of this fact is the drop of single frequency peak, one of many. And if you look at the manufacturer's specs, you can read that the frequency range of the speaker is 70-6000 Hz. According the specs, I would not buy this box, but in reality, it works just perfectly.

    Conclusion: you should not buy a box by looking at the frequency specs.

    I'm omiting all other factors involving the sound of a cab, as you do. If we went through these too, the conclusion would be: you should not buy a box by looking at the frequency specs.
     
  10. S.F.Sorrow

    S.F.Sorrow

    Dec 6, 2014
    I'm not sure I can even hear 18 kHz anymore... and I certainly wouldn't want to in a bass cab!!! But I like an old school tone. Anything above 3-4 kHz is just string noise to me
     
  11. 808State

    808State

    Dec 30, 2020
    For the most part yes

    E1 fundamental at 41.2 Hz will be more audible at the 2nd harmonic at 82.4 Hz

    Really depends on when you capture the response.
    And how you pluck the string.
    The 1st and 2nd harmonic levels will change from the initial attack of the note
    compared to the way it appears if you just let the note ring out.

    A open plucked string like E1 usually has more 2nd harmonic.
    Tighter fretted notes like E2 or E3 will have a higher 1st harmonic.

    Good example is the graphs shown. The plucked fretted G3
    has a very strong 1st harmonic or fundamental.

    With the open string only up to the 5 or 6th harmonic is audible

    As musicians we want clarity 80 to 2K is ok.
    For excellent systems 40 to 3K
    for players who want alot of zing on the highend 5 to 6K

    In reality in a live mix or recording bass covers 40 to 400 hz
    with a good mid forward tone live or in a recording
    bass barely covers 40 to 1,600 K
    that is the pocket your trying to squeeze in with a mix
     
  12. drumvsbass

    drumvsbass

    Aug 20, 2011
    Winnipeg
    I'd like to know who the heck needs 18khz represented on their bass tone? Tweeters are for the birds.
     
  13. 808State

    808State

    Dec 30, 2020
    Some Musicians always want more extra and cant dwell in the bandwidth the instrument lives in.

    Guitar is a octave higher, so guitar players always want more bass.

    Bass is a octave lower, so bass players want more highs.
     
    agedhorse and Bonsist like this.
  14. 808State

    808State

    Dec 30, 2020
    Eventually as a player you realize you work fretted notes mainly within F1 to F3
    43 to 174 Hz fundamental


    86 to 348 Hz 2nd harmonic

    Median would be 217 Hz
    Hence a very good mid bump is around 200/300 Hz

    516 to 1044 6th harmonic

    Median would be 780 Hz
    Hence a good mid cut is around 700/800 Hz
     
    spatters likes this.
  15. Bonsist

    Bonsist

    Jan 28, 2021
    Metalheads need it. Personally I like some clank in my sound.
     
    Empiar93 likes this.
  16. AdamR

    AdamR Supporting Member

    Sep 24, 2007
    Bethel CT
    Metal head here. 18K is pretty useless. As is anything above 5K or below 60. Lol
     
    dkelley, JeezyMcNuggles and Bonsist like this.
  17. 808State

    808State

    Dec 30, 2020
    Not only Metal , but even tame to med distortion.

    Guitar a octave higher is really cleaned up with 5k filters.
    Bass a octave lower about the same clean or dirty.

    With detune, its nice to have cabs that dont fart out.
    But most of the detune thing is string tone from dropping so low
    So yeah its still all 2nd harmonic that is more audible
     
    Bonsist likes this.
  18. Bonsist

    Bonsist

    Jan 28, 2021
    I just think it's better to be able to filter sweep it out instead of being stuck needing a frequency that you can't add back.

    I never need anything up into 18k either so I generally stay around the same frequency range as you and I like tones from both tweeter cabs and non tweeter ones but having more frequency spaces lets you do more with your bass, especially if you play 6 string and like to experiment with chords.

    Which I know is not really bass territory with strings that high most consider that to be guitar territory.
     
    AdamR likes this.
  19. Richard Martin

    Richard Martin Estimator Extraordinaire Supporting Member

    May 13, 2015
    Greenville, NC
    He also needs to know that there is an uncountable number of combinations of basses, amps, cabinets, pedals, room acoustics, player techniques, etc. All that can be done is point him in a general direction and hope he finds what he's looking for. Some people are satisfied with a simple bass, cable, amp setup, and others try combination after combination and never truly find the sound they're looking for.
     
    WayneP and Bonsist like this.
  20. GeorgesEric

    GeorgesEric

    Mar 24, 2021
    Thank you folks, I am just an amateur / enthusiast. I'll do some digging. Indeed, this site has a lot of resources!

    I survey for a living. In my line of of work, we typically go by 50% of the manufacturers' specs. They usually test their gear in optimal conditions which are rarely our reality in the field.

    PS. The Bass 6 is a pretty cool instrument. But darn...2 more strings to tune!
     
    Bonsist likes this.
  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
    May 8, 2021

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