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Frequency Response

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by GeorgesEric, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. micguy


    May 17, 2011
    Clank exists well below 18kHz. I have a low pass filter on my pedalboard. It usually sits somewhere between 3 and 4 kHz, and I get plenty of clank. Sure, some of it may be on the skirt of the filter (a bit above 4 kHz), but 18kHz bandwidth is far beyond what you need for a decent bass sound.

    I design pro audio gear for a living. Loudspeakers are horribly underspecified - the data you need to understand what a loudspeaker really does is well beyond what shows up in user manuals or advertisements. Unfortunately, giving more data (when customers don't know what it all means) doesn't help the situation - generally, more data brings more confusion.

    Use your ears - they're the final judge of whether or not the thing works for you, they should be the judge before purchasing as well. Yeah, I know you can't always do that.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  2. JeezyMcNuggles


    Feb 23, 2018
    Santa Maria, CA
    I suck, but nobody really notices
    It does make it louder though horse.
    scubaduba likes this.
  3. basscooker

    basscooker Commercial User

    Apr 11, 2010
    cincy ky
    Owner, ChopShopAmps
    Andy (way back in post #3) nailed what I think is the most important follow-up to make use of the numbers the first post. IDC if the system response is 35-21k if it has a net sensitivity of 87dB.

    The response numbers are qualified by other specs including sensitivity. Low end power limits is almost never published, so I assume "like" half to 60% RMS.

    * Note to manufacturers there.... If your box can belt out a real-world useable bass tone above about 60% of your published thermal RMS cab rating; you should definitely add that spec to your marketing because so few (mass produced) cabs actually can. IME of course*

    So yeah, OP, is the real purpose more like "I'm getting analysis paralysis help me understand this spec!" ; or "these are my needs, here is my short list; what is your pick and why?" The former has been covered. For the latter, there is just incomplete data to base a decision on for me.
    agedhorse likes this.
  4. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    No, not relative to the average level. At the low frequencies the additional extension does increase slightly the low frequency volume relative to the average level.
    JeezyMcNuggles and scuzzy like this.
  5. seamonkey


    Aug 6, 2004
    There's "Measurements" then there's "Specifications"
    For specifications there's "Engineer" and "Marketing". Marketing is a stretch of the truth. The may just be taking the theoretical range of the drivers and publishing those.
    The engineers do some cabinet modeling and work out the trade off between size, power, cost, sensitivity, frequency response. It never matches just the drivers alone.

    If the manufacturer does standard measurements they can provide a chart. Measurements are common in disciplines like high end FOH. Engineers who modeled the driver and cabinet actually measure them to see if they meet the engineering design specs.

    FOH engineers have requirements to know what their cabinets can actually do from the published data. It's accurate and the FOH purchasers would beat down the manufacturer if the bent the truth.

    Measurements are extremely rare in Musical instrument cabinets. There are some that measure, but they are very very rare. If Bass players had a requirement to actually know what their cabinets could do from the published data this could change.
    agedhorse likes this.
  6. All of this is way over my head, but I still have not quite wrapped my head around why bass guitar cabinets need to have such extended high frequency capability when somehow I keep thinking that most bass guitar pickups and tone networks aren't putting out anything up in those ranges.

    Is there a USA Today version of an answer to this I could understand?

    To quote one of my favorites, 'thanks for your indulgence' !
  7. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    When a player chooses round wound strings, bridge pickup and certain playing styles, it's indeed very possible to have harmonics of significant strength well into the 10kHz region (not at the level of the fundamental but still a significant contributor to the overall tone).

    As with many things, "it depends".
  8. Ahh... :bored:

    These numbers do not mean much to me as they do not describe the Character or Sound of the cab.

    Do they have a thick low-mid thump? Some love that and others do not.

    Do they have a that mid honk push? Some like this others hate it.

    These generic low to high frequency response numbers are useless for Character/Sound.

    Passinwind likes this.
  9. . . . . . and so to 'gate' those out in a typical cabinet with no tweeters or other smaller drivers for the high end would cost articulation. I'm a nickel roundwound guy who often plays with picks, so I guess I'm needing that upper end for the scratchy, clicky bits. Got it.

    THANKS, Andy.
    agedhorse likes this.
  10. Passinwind

    Passinwind I know nothing. Commercial User

    Dec 3, 2003
    Columbia River Gorge, WA.
    Owner/Designer &Toaster Tech Passinwind Electronics
    And even more so for the ever elusive "play feel." And IMO the audience can definitely tell the difference between an inspired player and an indifferent one.
    S-Bigbottom and agedhorse like this.
  11. el murdoque

    el murdoque

    Mar 10, 2013
    It looks like they did 5 Hz increments when generating those numbers. Maybe the 115+210 has a tiny bit more volume and the 115 alone was -3,01dB at 40Hz while the 115+210 was at -2,99dB at 40Hz.

    The 810 might be designed to have a vintage voicing. The other cabs all have tweeters.
    Luigir likes this.

    AMJBASS Supporting Member

    Jan 8, 2002
    Ontario, Canada
    Agreed. Specs are cool, and we all love them, but basic specs don't tell you the whole story. Your ears are the best judge.
  13. It makes everything louder somewhat, of course, assuming the cabinet or cabinets are designed correctly, not just highs. You get more low frequency extension from more surface area, but that is not true of highs - they don't go any higher with more of them.

    They do add to the output in theory, but you won't notice it the same way, and in fact it can decrease effective output off axis.

    Having more (or larger) high frequency drivers, unless they are VERY strategically located and aimed, cause beaming and phasing issues in the highs, which effectively reduces the off-axis high frequency output while causing certain locations in front of the speaker to be very loud in the highs.

    This is why you will never, in normal designs, see more than one treble horn in a bass cabinet, even if it's an 810.

    If you have no dedicated high frequency driver, then the multiple large full-range(ish) speakers handling high frequencies causes huge issues with dispersion and beaming at upper mid frequencies and higher.... so any consistent volume output differences are offset pretty strongly by where you are listening to the cab compared to everyone else.

    Complex stuff actually.
    JeezyMcNuggles likes this.
  14. What's the frequency, Kenneth?
    S-Bigbottom likes this.
  15. Random Exaggerated Marketing.
    JettBlaq likes this.
  16. Blue. Greenish blue.
  17. A9X


    Dec 27, 2003
    Yes, Wayne. There's Hifi BS and then there's MI BS which takes it to a whole new level, at least in this area where I find musis are generally less knowledgeable about specs than 'philes. Let's leave out cables, still sort of bad in MI in some regards, and rubbish like Shakti stones.
  18. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    I disagree. Having worked for a short while in that "audiophool" field, I experienced first hand a generalized group of folks who very much fit the model of "the emperor has no clothes". This includes being educated well beyond their own intelligence, parroting complex technical ideas and theories with absolute conviction without having the slightest idea of what it means. Arguments like electrons from the "good 'ol days" are superior to the electrons of today!!!

    I posted on a thread a while back how I dramatically exited that industry by pulling the curtain back on a few pompous "experts" with "golden ears", and indeed in spite of absolute conviction the whole crowd in attendance discovered that indeed the emperor was in fact naked.

    Most musicians are generally less gullible than the audiophile community (at least IME), so let's give credit where credit is due.
    dkelley, musicman556 and S-Bigbottom like this.
  19. JohnnyBottom

    JohnnyBottom Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2002
    New Jersey
    was going to say 'I go by watts'
    but really.. Whats the length of a piece of string ?
  20. A9X


    Dec 27, 2003
    My previous comment was a bit harsh, but based on my experience, not undeserved, and it was before the first cuppa in the morning. Musos just have a different slant to their lack of technical knowledge and misunderstandings, which is generally about as bad as the 'phile community. They are just as easily caught up in the BS, hype and legend.

    However WRT to specs, MI gear is at least as bad as hifi gear in terms of misrepresentation, if not in some cases, outright lies, and again I can give awful examples of each as well as excellent. I can and have measured many, many pieces of gear (every single amp I repaired for example was THD, SNR and power tested in a soak before being returned) and speakers at min FR and THD and I do a lot of measurements for the speaker and amps I design. A lot. So I have some reference here, from actually doing it.

    As for being able to fool 'philes and musos and show up their biases, it's as easy as fooling a small child that I can actually pull a coin out of their ear and one is not really worse than the other; I've also been posting about it on various fora since before Y2K. I've been doing proper double blind testing for decades because I found 'ears' were extremely inconsistent and unreliable, subject to a ton of subconscious biases; people 'hear' at least as much with their eyes. Toole and Oliver amongst others have done some excellent research in this field in recent years for example.

    I've been in both fields for decades. I've manufactured and designed under my own labels in the past (v small numbers), and now just design for others. All the while I designed and built PA gear, ran my own small PA and have repaired more amps and other components than I remember (hifi, MI, PA). When I first started I had to design and build all my own measuring equipment, and (almost) all my quals are in electronics. For all of my band and PA time, I worked and sometimes lived with musos (late wife was a classical pianist) so I've been around both areas since the early/mid 80s.

    AH, I'm nerdy enough in this area that one of the few things I'd want in a lotto win would be new measurement mics (my EW are fine I just want B&K), an open cheque to Klippel and maybe an AP.

    Before any muso gets too precious and thinks I'm insulting all of you, don't, I'm only talking tech here. I guarantee almost all of you are better players than me and early this morning I had a lightbulb moment in music theory that I've misunderstood until I randomly watched a YT video and 'got' something some of you have known since before you were 10.

    Thus endeth the rant.
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