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Full range cabs

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Rob Mancini, Mar 13, 2008.


  1. Rob Mancini

    Rob Mancini Guest

    Feb 26, 2008
    These full-range bass cabs with 6" and 8" drivers are intriguing me, mostly because I'm not a huge tweeter guy but I do like high freqs in my sound. But I'm also into keeping all my drivers on axis because the improvement in sound is noticeable. But the cabs in this style that I've seen look like a woofer, a mid driver, and a tweeter stuck in as small a box as possible because it makes the package small, like a 12" in the lower left corner, a 6" in the upper right, and a horn on the upper left.

    I like small cabs too, but I want a rig to make sense from an acoustic standpoint. Aside from having the dreaded but ubiquitous tweeter, do these types of cabs get it done with regard to comb filtering issues, or are they merely built to utilize cab space efficiently?

    I've been thinking about what would be a good small tweeterless cab rig that would still deliver full range would be a 15" cab on bottom and an 8" coaxial or a cab with a 10" and 5". Opinions?
     
  2. From many discussions on this site, the impact of the issues you mention seems to be greatly overstated (comb filtering, etc.)....especially in the example that you use.. with a single woofer, a single mid driver, and a tweeter when amplifying a bass guitar.

    IMO, it would be a mistake to limit your cab options due to the minor impact of the issues you mention in a live bass guitar rig.

    That being said, Low Down Sound has some cool designs incorporating coax tweeters and 6" mid drivers in small cabs that can easily be 'vertically arrayed' if that is important to you.
     
  3. I enjoy this topic, so another thing to think about. 'Full range' can be achieved in many ways. For example, my Bergantino HT210s is very even and extends quite deep. Jim achieves this by using high xmax drivers for deep bass extension, and a huge PA type horn crossed over low enough that there isn't a 'hole' in the upper mids due to the reduced upper frequency range of the driver.

    However, the NATURE of the tone is quite different from the three way designs, since the upper mids are cranking out of the horn, giving the cab a very pristine, some would say 'sterile' tone.

    My personal favorite way to generate an even full range tone is best executed IMO by Epifani with the UL's. They use full range drivers that extend low enough to provide good, usable low end but that also extend way up into the upper mids, and then use a very high order crossover (if I have that term correct... more of a low pass filter with a 'steep drop off') that results in a very distinct separation of the upper range of the woofer and the tweeter. So, you get a nice full range sound out of the woofer with the tweeter 'off' up through the upper mids, with nice warm paper cone mids and upper mids that seem to make it out to the room with more force than the three way cabs I've played, and then you have the ability to dial in the upper treble to the extent that you want... from subtle and even to screaming and anything in between.

    I like this design/voicing a lot, since in a typical live performance venue that seems to amplify the low end and suck up the upper mids and treble, a cab voiced like this can actually sound more even and flat than, for example, a three way cab with deep bass response and 'even mids and treble on the scope' (which sounds flat in an acoustically even room but that can sound dull and over extended in the low end in a room with lots of bodies sucking up the upper mids and treble, etc.).

    IMO and IME!
     
  4. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    When you stuff different sized drivers, crossed over at different frequencies, in the same box, any comb filtering would be greatly reduced (as compared to multiple drivers sharing the same frequency range and configured with a lot of 'overlap', like in a typical 4x10 configuration). IME, it seems that the vertical configuration ('line array', 'on-axix', etc.) issue is more relevant with multiple drivers sharing the same frequency, and less relevant with a 3-way design (with just one driver per frequency 'slice').

    I realize that there are many ways to crack the nut of bass enclosure design, but if what you are asking is whether or not these 3-way, 'full-range' designs are viable or not, then I'd say that of course there are some very excellent 3-way enclosures out there. But, there are also some great 2-way 'full range' cabs, and even some of the single driver cabs with no tweeter can sound very full range - the Wizzy 10 certainly comes to mind.

    How much high end are you looking for? If 7 kHz or so would do you, then something like the Bergantino NV215 might rock your boat. Or, if you are looking for high end, but on a more subdued level, then maybe AccuGroove or Acme, with their soft-dome tweeters, would be a good way to go. One super, but very hard to find, option is the Glockenklang Tedd cab, wich has a 15" and an outstanding midrange driver that does very high. Finally, I'll say that not all tweeters/crossovers are created equal, so if you don't like the some of some, don't rule out all tweeter-equipped cabs.

    Lots of options, really. What are you after?

    Tom.
     
  5. lomo

    lomo passionate hack Supporting Member

    Apr 15, 2006
    Montreal
    See Phil Jones Bass.
     
  6. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    Duh! Good point! :)
     
  7. Surely not at the top (or even middle) of my list, but another good example of the many different designs that can result in what many would describe as a full range sound.
     
  8. lomo

    lomo passionate hack Supporting Member

    Apr 15, 2006
    Montreal
    I recently picked up a used PJB 9B. Haven't played it out but have practiced with a drummer-amazing tone. It's not very efficient and my LM2 doesn't throttle it enough (it's 8 Ohm so I only get 300 watts through it), but my Orange head with 200 tube watts (whatever that may or may not mean, LOL) brings it to life like a fire-breathing dragon. Very impressive, clear lows and no "glare" in the upper register at all. The best tone combination in my little gear collection (thanks TB for the recommendation of pairing PJB with tubes), but too heavy for me to play out with.
     
  9. I remember Tom B. saying the Phil Jones stuff sound better with tube heads (and also OK with massive SS power, which I can also see). I can see that, since many tube heads like a tight, somewhat attenuated low end and a mid present tone. I bet that sounds great. Large size, heavy weight and low SPL are not my idea of a good time!
     
  10. lomo

    lomo passionate hack Supporting Member

    Apr 15, 2006
    Montreal

    Mine either. That's why the tone monster mainly sits in my living room for my enjoyment, but the LM2 and Schro 1212L see most of the limited gigging I do.
     
  11. fullrangebass

    fullrangebass

    May 7, 2005
    Europe
    A friend of mine and fellow TBer bought the drawings for a cab (OMNI-15). I am not aware of the design details but a professional cab builder and qualified electronic engineer looked at the design and said that it is probably a very good design, probably Full Range (did anybody call my name?) and heavy and expensive for sure. When my friend materializes the cab (soon enough I hope) we will listen side by side with whatever cabs (or combinations) we both have
     
  12. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    With Phil's older, ceramic-based designs, that has certainly been my experience. My 6T/9B are just flat out glorious with tube power, but much more finicky with SS amps.

    That said, Phil's new NeoPower line seems to be a whole different breed, and they respond very well to even moderately powered heads. I hope to have much more to report after we are done with our full reviews of the 8B (and eventually the 6B and 12B, as well).

    Tom.
     

  13. The new 8b seems interesting.... 4 ohms, under 60 pounds, and enough of those little speakers to at least put out the sound of a good 210 or 310 or whatever. I'd like to hear that one. The smaller and larger ones at 6ohms seem less interesting to me... with the 12B being quite large, and from my experience with the 6Pak, the smaller one not putting out much more than a good quality 112.
     
  14. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    +1 Agreed - the 8B is in the sweet spot of the lineup. :cool:
     
  15. TrevorOfDoom

    TrevorOfDoom Supporting Member

    Jun 17, 2007
    Austin, TX
    i've said it before, i'll say it again, the Neo 8B with the PJB700 head sounded so much like a vintage B15 (IMO) that i almost laid an egg when i heard it. and both the 6B and 8B sounded amazing with my Ashdown head. i know i don't need another cab since i've got a killer Bag End rig, but damn... the PJB stuff is really enticing.
     
    kaba7a likes this.
  16. Kenny Allyn

    Kenny Allyn

    Mar 25, 2006
    Memphis
    Some of the new Neos have both very high sensitivity and very nice extended upper mids and highs ...

    As an example in our tweeter extended cabinets the crossover point is at 3.5 k using the Eminence 2510 Neo, yielding a very smooth response.

    Early experiments with some standard Ceramic magnets put the crossover at 1.8 k still with a noticable notch in the response curve.

    :) ... A cab I've used, and you may try is the older EA VL-208s, if I remember both Ken and Tom have them too.
     
  17. Blues Cat

    Blues Cat Payson Fanned Bass Strings Owner Commercial User

    May 28, 2005
    Katy, Tx
    Payson Fanned Bass Strings Owner
    I've been thinking about a DR Bass 3 way cab. I want the Beyma neo upgrade but why put Beyma speakers in w/Eminence mid drivers. To get every thing out of the Beyma loaded cab you would need to upgrade to a Beyma mid in a sealed compartment in the box.

    So I'm actually looking at a DrB212DV (vertical alignment). Basically build two 112LF's together w/ maybe 2 soft dome tweeters. If you're going to spend $200 more per speaker it should be giving you a good mid rich sound inherently hopefully IMHO.
     
  18. Rob Mancini

    Rob Mancini Guest

    Feb 26, 2008
    Interesting stuff, everyone! Might take a little while to digest all this stuff, but I'll look into it further when I get more time. Thanks!
     
  19. jokerjkny

    jokerjkny

    Jan 19, 2002
    NY / NJ / PHL
    why not just get a nice PA cab? anthony jackson is all about the full range, and his meyer cabs are one of the best bass tones i've heard in recent memory. course, we all cant afford that, but there are many cabs to be had for nicer money.
     
  20. Rob Mancini

    Rob Mancini Guest

    Feb 26, 2008
    Don't think I haven't thought about a PA cab ;)

    Tom, you ask what I'm after, and the fact is I really don't know yet, since all this stuff is new to me. I kind of discovered it by accident a few months ago, and it was such a difference to me that I've been looking to pursue it further. Plus a little dissatisfaction with the tweeter in my Markbass combo is causing some of it. It's not bad, but it just seems a little cutting for my tastes, and with cabs with tweeter attenuators, I never run them past halfway up, usually 1/4 up. So I guess I'm thinking that 7-8K would be enough for me. I don't know, I guess I'm looking for food for thought at this point. I probably won't drop cash until I've acquired a lot more knowledge.
     

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