Dismiss Notice

Psst... Ready to join TalkBass and start posting, make new friends, sell your gear, and more?  Register your free account in 30 seconds.

Funny, I thought physics determined frequency response

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by K Dubbs, Nov 20, 2002.


  1. K Dubbs

    K Dubbs Just graduated from OSU, Go Bucks!

    Mar 16, 2002
    Toledo, Ohio
    Where did the laws of physics go? Ya know, the ones that made a speaker manufacturer compromise when it came to building speakers. Scientists used to say that it was a physical impossibility to create a speaker that had a flat frequency response of 30hz up somewhere into the khz while ALSO having a sensitivity of over 100dB's AND wasn't placed in a room sized box with monster length ports.

    I ask what gives with these new fandangled Eden 210xst's. Did Eden find a way to break the laws of physics and prove two guys named Thiele and Small to be complete baboons? If so, I can't wait for my Eden particle accelerator xst with its briefcase-sized convenience!

    AKA...either Eden is fibbing about their specs or there's something odd about these 210xst's and a hidden compromise that nobody can identify yet.



    Or maybe i'm the complete baboon...
     
  2. ihixulu

    ihixulu Supporting Member

    Mar 31, 2000
    getting warmer
    New magnets, better design, improved technology all around. The laws of physics still apply but the results are further along the chart. I believe its called progress.

    We're in the days of single space 1000+ watt amps. I'm sure people thought that was impossible years ago. I'm still waiting for the 500W all tube amp that weighs 25 lbs.
     
  3. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
  4. Lying has never been influenced by physics.

    Specs are published by sales people. You can tell they are lying when their lips move. The specs would have more validity if the testing method was published along with a chart showing the response.
     
  5. thrash_jazz

    thrash_jazz

    Jan 11, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Artist: JAF Basses, Circle K Strings
    Science is a constant process. Any so-called "law" of science is merely an approximation to reality, and a better one might be found at any time.

    For example, about a week before the Wright Brothers flew their first plane, the Smothsonian Institute PROVED that it was impossible for a heavier-than-air machine to fly! (or so I hear) :eek:
     
  6. K Dubbs

    K Dubbs Just graduated from OSU, Go Bucks!

    Mar 16, 2002
    Toledo, Ohio
    well if it can be done these days, that's great news. Maybe we'll see more and more high quality loud bass blasting cabinets. I'm still a bit suspicious though
     
  7. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    I didn't find anything on their website, either. I'd like to see these specs......wondering if it's like a lot of manufacturers who list "usable frequency response", which often means +/- 10db.

    I'd be incredibly surprised to see Eden making huge advances in speaker technology that have thus far eluded JBL, Electrovoice, Clair Bros, Showco.......pro sound companies would give a lot of $$$$ to have subwoofers that are flat to 30Hz, will produce 130db+, and are the size of a shoebox.....
     
  8. Nick man

    Nick man

    Apr 7, 2002
    Tampa Bay
    I tested one with my ears, and you know what?

    I think I believe them.

    I spent over a year lugging my custom built 7cu ft 2-15" cab tuned to 30Hz until I got my 210XST. It does what they say it does. I cant wait to get another!

    The reason they dont have it on their website is probably because they havent updated it. Its not some kind of crazy mystery.

    Oh and by the way, the reason they can make such a cab isnt by breaking the laws of physics, but by taking advantage of them. They have used their knowlege of physics and how it relates to speaker and cabinet design to sucessfully develop a cab that has the incredible range it does have.

    Oh, and regarding the comment about the super long ports, the ports on this cab reach almost to the very back of the cab.

    Believe what you like, or just go test it out and see what you think.

    Peace
    Nick
     
  9. K Dubbs

    K Dubbs Just graduated from OSU, Go Bucks!

    Mar 16, 2002
    Toledo, Ohio
    i'm not necessarily doubting that the cab does what people say it does, although it is a bit strange. Moreso I'm wondering if its actually doing what people say its doing, how is it doing it? aka bigger magnet, different magnet, different voice coil format or material, active power control like the bagend elfs, etc
     
  10. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    Something you have to understand is that just because a cabinet is tuned to 30Hz doesn't mean it will have a flat frequency response to 30Hz. It depends on the interaction of the cabinet and the speakers, and there is no speaker made that will go that low, and that loud, in that small a cabinet. Not even remotely close.

    Technically, you can build a 1 cubic foot box tuned to 30Hz - using an external vent - but there isn't a driver in the world that would work well in it.

    I found a press release for the 210xst.....

    http://namm.harmony-central.com/SNAMM02/Content/Eden/PR/D-210XST.html


    ......and like I said earlier, that listing is ambiguous - it doesn't say what variance they're allowing for (+/-?db) in the frequency response.. The 410xst uses the same drivers and is -6db at 31Hz. That is most certainly a lot more low end than most cabs, but it's not nearly flat to 31Hz.
     
  11. I never wanted to say this, but I have some inside information about the Dutch section of Eden (which is under the same roof with Koch guitar amps). These guys are laughing their *sses off! People pay big bucks for their over priced, so/so quality midrange bass cabs. The only good thing behind Eden is their marketing strategy.

    Come on, I have studied and practiced speaker design for about ten years now, and their specs are simply impossible. It may sound good to the human ear, but that's not because of the literally incredible specs. We all know the human ear is far from a measuring device.

    Eden: keep up the good work! Fill your pockets! But I'll never be buying anything with "Eden" on it.
     
  12. Joris, if they sound good, why care so much about the specs? (although I admit that eden cabs are a bit overpriced imo)
     
  13. Brendan

    Brendan

    Jun 18, 2000
    Austin, TX
    Used m'boy, used.

    I use Eden gear, but am not overly faithfull to it. Actually, the rig might get overhauled here in the next week or two, because I'm gonna go amp shopping. Specs me dookie to me, it's all about the sound.
     
  14. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    It'd be nice if you could narrow down a shopping list without having to actually play through every decent cabinet made. Look at it this way - you've got some mad money and with your current rig, your low b string's got no balls. If a cabinet is listed to be -3db@50Hz, you've got a pretty good idea that you can skip that one...

    Besides that, it's just basic truth in advertising. Lots of examples of BS out there. SWR lists some efficiency ratings for 2.83v@1 meter - for an 8 ohm cabinet. DECEPTION!!! 2.83v is 1 watt for a 4 ohm load; it's 2 watts for an 8 ohm load. At least Mesa-Boogie just doesn't bother to list any specs whatsoever, they just try to tell you how their cabs sound with all the usual adjectives - thick, pounding lows!! Chiming, bell-like highs!! Grinding mids!!!.......there's just no reason for all the BS. If they're going to publish these specs at all, they should be truthful.
     
  15. ihixulu

    ihixulu Supporting Member

    Mar 31, 2000
    getting warmer
    Wow, and that doesn't sound like pure BS?
     
  16. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    Wow, have you ever heard of sarcasm?!?!
     
  17. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    You have this backwards.
     
  18. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Not really. "Flat" is most commonly defined in the speaker biz as + or - 3 dB. So a cab that's -3 dB at 50 Hz is still generally considered flat *down to that point*. Now, with -6 or -10 dB, you've got a real rolloff. Even though some folks consider -10 "usable" response, whatever that means.
     
  19. flat down to 50Hz yes but the low b is @ approx 31Hz and vented cabs have a very strong rolloff below their tuning point
     
  20. but my reason for saying that the sound is more important than specs for bass cabs is that when going over the pa too much low end from the cabs on stage are bad for overall sound, and miked cabs are mainly used for coloration and not low end (you normally get that from DI)