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GenzBenz>Ampeg 4x10 HLF Problem

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by frankegcbass, Aug 1, 2012.


  1. I will try to explain my problem as clearly and as precise as possible.Pardon me for the lack of knowledge and terms but thats why I'm posting here.
    I played a show last night using a Genz Benz shuttle 6.0 that I bought from another Tb'er a week ago and Ampeg 4x10 hlf classic. I also have a few pedals that consist of a od, octave and pre-amp.Throughout the night the head cut out three times. Only for a few seconds but enough to notice and ruin the performance.I even lowered the master and gain below noon to the point were the bass was hardly heard. This has happened every time I used the GenzBenz in a band setting.
    Now, I kept the eq on the GenzBenz at 12:00 on all four. My gain and both volumes were also @ 12. Tone shapers were off. I was told this might prevent the problem, but no luck.
    I really love this head but I'm having a hard time with the fact that it can only give half its volume and eq potential before giving out and turning off.
    I do have the pre-amp pedal volume a bit higher than noon but still I feel like it doesn't justify the head clipping constantly and turning off.
    Should I ask the person I bought this head from to return my money or am I doing something wrong?
    Like I said, I love the sound of the head, but if I can't use it in my band than its useless to me.
    Also, if need be. Can I use the shuttle 6.0 as a power amp and just use the VT as my pre? Would this stop the head from clipping and shutting off?
    Thanks in advance for any info.
    -Frank
     
  2. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    I find the VT pretty hard to work with as a preamp, even though I think it's a great pedal. But it won't stop that problem, I don't think. I suggest contacting Genz Benz...their CS is great, and there is something wrong with your head if it cuts out that early.

    In the meantime, have you tried replacing the tube yet? Could be a tube on its last legs, which is an easy fix. Might not be the problem, but worth a shot before you give up on it.
     
  3. kraigo

    kraigo

    Jun 21, 2007
    Minneapolis, MN
    That's not normal for a Shuttle 6.0, in my experience of having one for about three years now. Yes, contact their customer support. They are very good to their customers.

    And of course Jimmy is right, the VT doesn't really have enough output to cleanly drive a power amp.

    KO
     
  4. ok, thanks. I didn't think the VT would hold up on it's own. Just kinda desperate cause we have shows coming and all. Thanks guys.
     
  5. Dbassmon

    Dbassmon

    Oct 2, 2004
    Rutherford, NJ
    I think the issue is with thermal shutoff, maybe a bad sensor.

    That amp has built in compression, even if you pushing to the brink, it would compress not over heat.

    If it is indeed being tripped by a properly operating thermal sensor, it would most likely result if you had the wrong impedance load. That amp is Rated Power: 375W/8ohms; 600W/4ohms .

    Going below 4ohms would cause the amp to overheat and potentially shutdown.

    Your Ampeg bottom is probably 8 ohms and this should not be an issue. But check it.

    This amp needs to be looked at by a technician. You may want to send it back to the seller.

    BTW, I have a shuttle 9 and push it to limit everytime I use it.... it is a great sounding head!!!
     
  6. I hear ya. It def is a great sounding head.And my amp is 4ohms . I used and orange terror 500 before this. Thats a powerful head, and I had no problems at all. Well, beside being limited to one tone. That amp is not very versatile. I really wish the shuttle 6 was working right. I feel like I pretty much bought this guys problem. How does this work on TB. Do I just contact him and pray that he will be reasonable about it?
     
  7. Dbassmon

    Dbassmon

    Oct 2, 2004
    Rutherford, NJ
    Yea, that's pretty much what you need to do. The power of community works pretty well here. If I a guy wants to do the wrong thing, bad news travels fast and he/she will find themselves subject to community pressure or will not be around anymore.

    Does the seller have a lot of transactions? You if he does a lot of business here, I can not imagine this being issue to straighten out.

    You should call Genz Benz and tell them what is going on. At the end of the day, maybe the seller refunds the repair costs.
    Worth having some conversations.

    When working, that amp is ultra clean little monster. It can absolutely be restored to perfect condition. How much to get it fixed is the question and who will pay?
     
  8. Hapa

    Hapa

    Apr 21, 2011
    Tustin, CA
    To everyone already posted thank you for the kind words.

    Frank -

    The Shuttle 6.0 should not be doing this and I apologize for any bad effect on your art if it is our fault.
    First thing I would check is the speaker cable. A is it 12g or less, B does it read correct on a multi-meter, C is it a speakon - I recommend it. It might be the tube but it would generally work, give noise, or not work if that was the case. The wall voltage could have been too low and caused improper performance. Thermal shutdown is not likely, we test those amps in sun Arizona sun. The black chassis in 122 Deg heat with 15% humidity run for a few days with pink noise going in didn't shutdown. Over engineered to always work is part of our mantra. Check the cable and another outlet, but give us a call at the shop if you still have issues.
     
  9. Hapa

    Hapa

    Apr 21, 2011
    Tustin, CA
    Glad to hear you are using GB gear!!!
    However the Shuttle 6.0 does not have compression nor do any of the ".0" series Shuttles. The do have built in limiters but not until the "2" shuttle series came out did they get the 3DPM. A bad sensor could be a issue but we would be seeing shut down problems all over the place not just at stage volume. If/when Aged horse finds this thread he very well may correct me with a more definitive answer.
     
  10. Thanks very much. Not so sure its a powering issues as it happened in three different places. I checked my speak-on as well on a friends rig and it seems to be fine. Just trying to troubleshoot everything i'm hearing even though I think its most likely an internal issue.
     
  11. Hapa

    Hapa

    Apr 21, 2011
    Tustin, CA
    Give us a call. We will make sure you are rockin.
     
  12. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Here are some things to check to see if we can narrow it down to a particular area...

    1. When the amp shuts down, does the thermal LED turn on? If not, it's unlikely to have anything to do with the fan or fan control.

    2. When the amp shuts down, have you been driving it hard into limiting (output limit LED flashing hard)? There is a form of soft knee compressor-limiter in the output section that emulates tube power amp overdrive and it's possible to drive very hard into limiting without realizing that you are doing so.

    3. Have you tried the amp with another cabinet? It's possible that the cabinet was rewired or repaired and no longer matches the factory's design impedance. I have seen enough of these recently to now consider this whenever these symptoms are reported.

    4. Double-check that your speaker cable does not have loose connections on the Speak-On end. Again, we are seeing enough improperly assembled cables (ex. tinned wires loosening from the binding screws... wires on SpeakOns should never be tinned) that this too is a very real possibility. For that short of a run, anything from 12 gauge to 16 gauge will be fine.

    It's possible that there is a problem with your amp, but let's troubleshoot to be sure first and then we will get you all sorted out regardless of where the problem ends up being.
     
  13. I appreciate it. I will check those out tomorrow as soon as I get a chance. Thanks again.
     
  14. Dbassmon

    Dbassmon

    Oct 2, 2004
    Rutherford, NJ
    How about that? That is awesome that the boyz from Genz Benz chime in with actionable advice.

    I have no issues to report with my gear but I happy to know that a small company is totally responsive on this forum.

    franknbass, I have no doubt you will get your issue straightened out and I blown away by the responsive, proactive way Genz Benz does business.

    The fact that they monitor TB is such good marketing and public relations and is quite impressive. I am a fan of the amp, now I am a fan of the company!
     
  15. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    franksgbass - I will be on the road next week with a new "personal digital device" so if I don't get back on this in a timely manner it's just because of technical difficulties in my upgrade and not because I am ignoring this.
     
  16. So I upgraded to a 6x10hlf and this has made a big difference. The only light that comes on now is the input o/l. So I tried it without my pedals set up straight into the head and it was fine. I feel like the problem might have been partialy the wiring on my 4x10hlf. (But no doubt the fact that the genz was shutting off was saving me from blowing a speaker. In the end saving me hundreds of dollars). and also the combination of the gain on the VT bass pedal and the chi sonic pick-ups. They are passive chi's but from what I hear they are similar to active pu's with thier output. So, alas, there was nothing wrong with my head. And I did need more rig for the gig apparently. I still have alot to learn about amps and gear in general. I spent 20 years practicing the bass and never paying attention to gear, now i'm paying for it being in a working band and all. I'd like to sincerely thank agedhorse and the others from genz who were super helpful, even when I initially over re-acted. I learned a few good lessons throughout this experience. And also that Genz Benz customer service is hands down the best in the business.
     
  17. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Glad it was resolved and you have a rig that makes you happy.
     
  18. Told you it was clipping due to bad wiring in the cab.
     
  19. Would you like a cookie? :)
     
  20. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    I would.
     

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