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Got a question for all you acme fans/users/knowledgeables.....

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Grahams Groove, Nov 24, 2001.


  1. I am in the process of trying to purchase a new bass system for in my band, and I would prolly be dumping about 500 bucks in plus the 400 ive allready spent on the mesa cab, but what would you say about buying an acme b-4 and a mackie 1400i instead of going with the hartke 3500, mesa diesel 4x10 and eden 1x15 (d115-t)....Which would be better, louder, or more accurate in reproducing my bass tones? Also, is the b-4 just as good as 2 b-2's?...I don't have the cash to do 2 b-2's (if i even go the acme route....Right now i am just exploring all options since i have some extra time.) and the b-4 is my only option if i want 4x10 from acme. Also, can you reccomend a lower priced preamp for this sort of thing? I wouldnt have alot to spend on one, and anything over like 500 bucks would be out of the question for sure.

    Thanks alot....
    Graham
     
  2. Also, what would you reccomend i run this with, and according to the type of music i play...(Rock, phish, WSP, funk..."jamming"...some slap) Is this a good cab for my musical genre? And i was looking at the QSCrmx1450 power amp which would give me 1400 watts @ 4 ohms in bridged mode....is that cool? Where would i go about looking for mayeb a used power amp?Thanks again....
    Graham
     
  3. I've owned the RMX series in the past. The electronics are fine, but there are drawbacks. An RMX-1450 in used condition sells for $413 average on eBay. 1450 watts ain't a helluva lot of power, and it's heavy at 40 pounds. Spend a little more money and get a QSX PLX model 2402 or higher, at 21 pounds. The PLX 2402 and larger have the superior two-stage Class H output circuitry. Also, the resale value of the PLX is much better than the RMX.

    If you are considering Acme cabs, don't short yourself on power. Even if not, buy all the amp you can possibly afford and enjoy the extra headroom. Then, if you ever get into power-hog cabs, you will already have the amp without trading up (again).
     
  4. The Acme B4 would would be great with enough power.An inexpensive preamp is the Sansamp RBI.It has everything you would need except a compressor.They run about $300 new at most music outlets.
     
  5. Steve

    Steve

    Aug 10, 2001
    "Which would be better, louder, or more accurate in reproducing my bass tones?"

    Better? only you can decide.
    Louder? probably the Hartke/Mesa/Eden
    More accurate? Acme.

    "Also, is the b-4 just as good as 2 b-2's"

    With the B-2's you'll get another 5" and 2" driver. The coupling effect will bring you back to the sensitivty level of the B-4 more or less so thats a wash. Using the B-2's as a vertical array is very cool because that top speaker ends up about shoulder level and you hear it really well. It's also a VERY top heavy setup once you put your rack on it. If the stage isn't perfectly flat and rock solid, it's a little nerve wracking to watch it sway back and forth.

    Since my initial experimental stage with my Acme's, I've never used the B-2's together. The B-4 is equivalent to my ear.

    "Also, can you reccomend a lower priced preamp for this sort of thing?"

    IMHO the "you get what you pay for" factor is stronger in preamps than anything else in the music game. If accuracy and Acme is the direction you're looking, that's not a good corner to cut.

    As good as the Acme's are at reproducing the sound of your bass, they're even better at reproducing the crap in your signal chain.
     
  6. So around 1200 watts into a 4x10 acme isnt going to be as loud as 350 watts into a mesa 4x10+eden 1x15???

    Also, what do you think of trace elliot tube preamps??

    Thanks alot. And my other input is, I play in a band with two guitarists, one with a marshall 250 watt 2x12(SS) and one with a fender stage160 (or maybe it's stage 60? I htink its 160 though), and then a pretty loud drummer. The biggest things we would be playing RIGHT NOW is maybe 300 people or so in a small theater type thing. But other than that, we'll be playing gyms and party's unless somehting comes up and we go somewhere really big. We also have a PA, but its not great, and the 12"s tend to distort if i run enough bass through them to make a difference. But how much louder would the 4x10+1x15@350 watts be compared to a 4x10(+5+horn)@1200 watts?? (If you need to do a mathematicla equation, idk about the mesa's efficiency, but its front ported and its a diesel model from a few years back, and the eden 1x15 is the d-115t (rear ported).

    Thanks alot for your help.
    Graham
     
  7. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    also with the Acmes, you could get into a B2 and a B2W (which is B2 without the mid and high drivers, just the sub-Woofer) for under $900. much easier to carry and also options of different onstage arrangement of the cabs, plus maybe you would only need one cab for small rooms. I'd shoot for about 1500 watts stereo power amp that can handle a 2 ohm load, just to be safe.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve

    Aug 10, 2001
    "So around 1200 watts into a 4x10 acme isnt going to be as loud as 350 watts into a mesa 4x10+eden 1x15???"

    It's a good possibility it won't. db's due to their logorhythmic nature are a funny thing. Getting from 60 to 63 db's is just a matter of playing harder. Getting from 100 to 103 is a big job. Cabinet efficiency is a HUGE factor as you get louder.

    If I were playing a 300 seat venue with a couple of Marshall's, a loud drummer and no PA support, I'd be taking more than my B-4 with me....

    BGAVIN is quite the authority on the science of the whole thing and if you ask him real nice like, he might could probably give you hard numbers.

    "Also, what do you think of trace elliot tube preamps??"

    No experience. The buzz on the street is that they have a low output and you need to change the input sensitivity on your power amp or you won't be able to drive it to full output. I do have a Series 6 Trace that I have tried to use as just a preamp and it seems to have the same issue. Sounds damn good tho....

    Take a look at Mr. Gavins site. www.ofgb.org there's a bunch of good tech info there on cabinet specs an such.
     
  9. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    The construction and performance of the Acme is just incredible and ridiculously unreal. Play one and you'll see how this bullsh*t you were putting up with of Eden and SWR and Ampeg. You'll be glad that you pushed yourself to buy direct from them than trying out an SWR or Eden in a store, say its OK, and then realize that the Acme was what you wanted deep down inside. :)

    Now the downside, as already said in previous posts, the Acme is SUCH a good reproducer of what you put into it, if you have 1 POS in the signal chain, you're out of luck. My advice to you is just to not add that Boss effect pedal or that favorite DOD grunge pedal of yours, as this might lead to instantaneous explosion of your cranium. Just thought you'd like to know.
     
  10. MikeyD

    MikeyD

    Sep 9, 2000
    Actually, I'd like to know why this was posted twice. You can delete the repeated post. Thanks!
    - Mike
     
  11. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    Whoopsy daisy, Mikey. Sorry bout that.:oops:
     
  12. My Musicians' Reference is an Excel spreadsheet that has a tab "DB" you can use to figure out SPL levels. Plug in the SPL for your Marshall stack and cross reference the wattage column and that will tell you what SPL is calculated at a specific distance. Plug in the SPL rating for the Acme and compare the two.

    Remember you cannot exceed the power rating for the cab. More power just burns them up, and doesn't not make them any louder (before they smoke). If you need more SPL, add more cabinets and more power.

    For example, using an Acme B-2, you have SPL 93 at 1 watt @ 1 meter or 118 SPL at 350w/1m. This is the maximum you can get from this cab. Add a second B-2 and run both at 350 watts (requires 2x more amplifier power) and you have a +3 dB increase in loudness. Stack both B-2 and this adds another +3 dB from mutual coupling.

    From here out, we will use maximum SPL at the maximum cab power rating.

    Cab #1 SPL 118
    Cab #2 SPL 118
    --------------
    Result SPL 121
    Add +3 mutual coupling
    ----------------------
    Result SPL 124 from 700 watts @ 1 meter

    If you want to do it again, everything doubles again. The next increment is a total of (4) B-2 stacked and 1400 watts to pick up another +6 dB. This will take you to 130 SPL from 1400 watts @ 1 meter and make Andy Lewis at Acme very happy cuz you bought (4) cabs from him.

    :D

    I'd be looking at (2) 4x10 instead of (4) 2x10 here, to save money and have less cabs to fiddle with. Two B-4 will give you the same SPL 130 but cost less.

    For comparision purposes, if you did the same thing with two Eden D-410XLT, you would have 140 SPL at 1400 watts @ 1 meter, which is +10 dB or truly twice as loud as the Acme pair.
     
  13. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    hey bgavin, what happened to that spreadchart? Its now a chart of preamps? What gives?:mad: Please tell me whats the dillio.:confused:
     
  14. Download the spread sheet file, open it under Excel, choose the right tab.
     
  15. I havew no clue how you did that, so let me ask this, what would be the max db output if i had a eden 1x15-100dB @1 watt 1 meter with a mesa boogie on top (4x10) 100dB @ 1watt 1meter? Using a 350 watt(max) amp.
    And then i guess with me maxing out on power, the acme low B-4 can do 121dB

    Thanks math people
     
  16. :confused:

    I thought you were supposed to use an amp with more power than the speaker cabinet’s rating.
     
  17. MikeyD

    MikeyD

    Sep 9, 2000
    If you want to be safe, then (1) make sure your amp has enough power so you don't drive it into clipping (at least not very much) and (2) have speakers rated to handle the amplifier's rated RMS continuous output into that impedance. This means that the wattage number for the cabinet should be equal or greater than that of the amp.

    When guys starting talking about "underpowering" and "minimum recommended power" relative to speakers, all it winds up doing is confusing people.

    Now, for very complicated reasons, one *can* use amplifiers that far exceed the power rating of the speaker (and note that the most common wattage figure given for professional speakers is the RMS continuous power rating, not the minimum, etc.). But one has to ensure that, even though the amp might momentarily throw spikes of power (transients) far above the speaker's rated wattage, the *average* power into the speaker is still below its rated handling capacity.

    All of the foregoing assumes NO clipping. If you overdrive an amp into clipping, first of all, your sound is going to suffer. Second, an amplifier can deliver almost *twice* its rated sine RMS power when it clips hard. This is why people say clipping can damage speakers. But this is not always the case. It only happens when the actual wattage of the sustained, clipped waveform exceeds the speaker's rating.

    If you have a 100-watt amp and drive it into hard clipping, it might put out almost 200 watts. If you are using a speaker rated for 400 watts, it is doubtful that it will be damaged by this. On the other hand, if you are using a 150-watt speaker, you can fry it if you drive it this way for long enough.

    There are important exceptions to all these general rules, which is why I usually recommend people not exceed the rated power handling of their speakers and avoid clipping. As I've said numerous times before, if you are clipping it means you either need a more powerful amp, more (or more efficient) speakers, or both.

    - Mike