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Grand Prix!

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by KSDbass, Jun 19, 2005.

  1. KSDbass


    Mar 25, 2005
    For those who don't know, the grand prix weas today and only 6 out of twenty people are racing this year, and shumacher got hit with a beer can. its lap 35 right now, and its pretty interesting. anybody else watching?
  2. Yvon

    Yvon Supporting Member

    Nov 2, 2000
    Montreal, Canada
    I completly forgot about it, I just switched to it now!
  3. Time Divider

    Time Divider Guest

    Apr 7, 2005
    All the teams running Michelins insisted that they put in a chicane before turn #13 or they wouldn't race. Never heard how it came out.
  4. bassjigga


    Aug 6, 2003
    It was a smart decision for them to pull out. Safety is first. As for the race... not watching. Who cares to see the 2 Ferraris race each other?
  5. Yvon

    Yvon Supporting Member

    Nov 2, 2000
    Montreal, Canada
    If the put a chicane and the michelin driver wouldN't get any points...

    At least we would have a race.
  6. bassjigga


    Aug 6, 2003
    It was the FIA's decision not to put the chicane in. The teams cannot be faulted for that.
  7. Tsal


    Jan 28, 2000
    Finland, EU
    Michelin had some problems with the new tires with new kind of rubber introduced for this race, they suspect that it couldn't take the hard 12th turn.

    Apparently Michelin tried to suggest that they could get a batch of older tires flown in from the Europe but this would be against FIA rules - they state that the teams must use same tires for the whole weekend.
  8. Vorago

    Vorago (((o)))

    Jul 17, 2003
    Antwerp, Belgium
    What exactly happened? I heard of it vaguely, but didn't see any footage.

    Btw, who won?
  9. I think Barrichello won but I wasn't watching. (EDIT: Actually, Schumacher won and Barrichello finished second)

    The Canadian Grand Prix was last week, my drummer went to the trials and it was otherwise insane in downtown Montreal during the entire weekend.

    BTW: http://www.autonet.ca/Motorsports/story.cfm?story=/Motorsports/IRL/2005/06/19/1095450-ap.html

    Here's an article detailing the pre-race happenings and the Michelin thing. Seems there was something wrong with their tires and they couldn't explain it. So they pulled out for safety reasons before something serious happened.
  10. Tash


    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    Schumacher won, Barichello got second and Montero (sp?) of Jordan got 3rd.

    Yeah...a Jordan taking a podium behind two Ferraris. I'm an F1 nut and a major Ferrari fan, but *** is the point? I just read the results, glad I didn't bother watching.

    Edit: OK, this is plain silly...Michelin asked that it be allowed to send new tires to the teams it supplies, and the FIA refused. God forbid the precious rules laid out in an office last year be waived for the safety of 14 drivers.

    Apparently Ferrari resisted the placement of the chicane, which I can understand (car setups are decided well in advnace of the race using known track data, altering the track layout at the last minute can be just as dangerous as running on potentially bad tires). I'm sure there will be plenty of fallout over this one.
  11. PunkerTrav


    Jul 18, 2001
    Canada & USA
    Yup. If a similar scenario were to unfold in Europe, while there would still be outrage, the long term ramifications would be far less severe.

    F1 is struggling to break through to the US market. After Ferrari's team orders debacle in 2002, US fans were hesitant to subscribe to F1, especiall ysince NASCAR and INDY are doing much bette rnow.

    The real loser this weekend was Tony George. He invested hundreds of millions of dollars to bring the race back to Indianapolis this year, and is rewarded with slap in the face.

    This disaster of a weekend will very likely be the powder keg Mosely has been hoping for to make a breakoff World GP series more plausible. Pulling the cars off course is the pinnacle of the tension between the team owners and Max Mosely.

    When the time comes to reform the Concorde Agreement, which is actually quite soon, there will be massive changes to grand prix racing.
  12. Tash


    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    I was thinking much the same thing. This isn't the first time something like this has happened, I belive in the 70s there was actually a grand prix where only two cars raced, and one crashed!

    But F1 as a sport is teetering on extinction despite its popularity. Its far too expensive to be a sound investment for most teams, the rules regarding equipment have eliminated much of the technology trickle down for auto makers (who learn more from road car based series like GT and ALMS), and companies will shell out only so much for prestige.

    And on top of all this we have Max, who would gladly see F1 die a slow death rather than let anyone else have control of it.

    I'm sure F1 will survive this debacle, but it definately makes it hard to convince people to take it seriously when something like this happens.

    Also I can't help but wonder if the same thing would have happened at a european race. The FIA by and large considers F1 a european sport and is none too happy about the notion of dirty smelly Americans getting involved with it. Had this been at Imola or Spa or Monaco I'm sure new tires would have on a Fed Ex plane Saturday night.
  13. Pause


    Jun 4, 2003
    Miami, FL
    It was quite disappointing.

    Changing the course by adding a chicane would have been a bad thing to do. It would be a very different circuit were this to take place.

    What I believe should have happened is that the teams on Bridgestone tires should have been moved up to the front of the grid (in the order of which they qualified). Then, the Michelin drivers would be moved behind them (also in qualifying order) with their new tyres. The tyres were there; Michelin had flown them over last night.

    It's too bad it didn't rain, because the Michelin wet tires would likely be safe to run on. Of course, that would just make it easy for Shumacher...

    It was quite a boring race to watch - but I was really just listening to the whole story of this situation rather than watching the race. It was nice to see Montiero on the podium. He was so excited! Well, he should have been, as he'll probably never be back up there again...

    I can only imagine how upset the people in the grandstands must have been... I'd hate to have paid for tickets, airfare, and lodging to just watch a two-car race.
  14. KSDbass


    Mar 25, 2005
    I think the announcers said it was like 1978, all the drivers wenton strike, except two, but I didnt hear about any crashing.

    And how did Schumacher not get disqualified?! he ran Barichello right off the track! :scowl:
  15. 'JC'


    Mar 14, 2000
    I'm actually really angry at Ferrari right now but not surprised.

    Appearantly a decision had been reached by 9 Bridgestone & Michelin teams to not take part in the race due to the tire problem, and would have been willing to race with a chicane even at the expense of points, just to put the race on for the US fans.

    Guess which one team said no to that... :spit:

    edit: from TSN.ca:
  16. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Oh OK, so it's not popular in the US, therefore it's dying :) I'm sorry but that’s actually quite laughable. You're entitled to prefer other forms of racing, but F1 fans worldwide would see you comment as rather naïve.

    However, even a F1 fan like myself won’t sit by and watch any more episodes like this one. This weekend was a total debacle. Everyone’s pointing the finger at Ferrari, but everyone seems to think Michelin should go blame free because they flew in the old tyres. I’d like to know how a new tyre ended up on the track without being thoroughly tested? Who do you reckon the Ralf is angry at right now, Ferrari, F1 management, or Michelin?
  17. Tash


    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    Actually I prefer F1 to all other forms of racing, I always have and probably always will. You may disagree with my assessment, but that doesn't make it naive, nor am I alone in thinking Formula 1 is in serious danger of collpase. This assessment has nothing to do with F1's lack of popularity in the US (let Americans have their silly ovals).

    The fact is that F1 is so unbelivably expensive, and the potential sources for the kind of money it demands are limited in number. Right now F1 is basically a 2 team series: McLaren vs. Renault, with Ferrari and Williams there to snap up a victory is something goes wrong. From a sponsorship point of view why would you want to get into this? Who wants to pour a few hundred million into BAR or Toyota, let alone Red Bull or Sauber or one of the others.

    Messing with the rules to make things more competative hasn't worked, nor has it cut costs, just forced teams to spend money in other areas. Its clear that if costs don't come down we will probably see one or more teams drop out in the next couple seasons, and the possibility of another F1 like series (GP1) makes that move even more attractive. There have been rumors of mergers between Red Bull and Sauber, rumors of BMW pulling out if Williams doesn't do well enough this year, rumors that Toyota might abandon its own team in favor of becoming an engine supplier and technical partner to one of the big 3....

    What would F1 be like if any of those things came to pass? Can F1 survive with only 9 teams? With 8, or 7? Its a good question, and anyone who actually pays attention to F1 is aware of the possibilities.

    I'm also not quite sure how this was Ferrari's fault. Yes they refused the change to the circuit, probably with very good reason. But do you think Mosely would have put in a chicane if they'd been OK with it? Maybe, maybe not. Even when they are taking a beating in the championship they are still public enemy #1 for most F1 fans. Minardi can't run last years aero package, its Ferrari's fault. Michelin decides these tires are unsafe, its Ferrari's fault. F1 isn't fun to watch because Michael won too much last year, that's Ferrari's fault too.

    Makes no sense to me.
  18. bassjigga


    Aug 6, 2003
    It was an unfortunate situation. I understand the decisions that were made. Michelin could not guarantee the safety of their tires for the duration of the race. So naturally the teams could not think of sending their drivers out with the chance of something like what happened to Ralf Schumacher on Friday, but with the possibility of serious injury.

    I also understand the FIA's decision not to allow them to run the tires Michelin overnighted in. The rules allow them to bring a couple different compounds to the track. They should have brought a set that would work. By the way, I'm pullin for Alonso (have been since he was in go karts... I worked with Mike Wilson indirectly a little), so I'm not biased toward Bridgestone in any way.

    I think the best solution would have been for them to use to safe tires which were flown in and accepted a penalty or exclusion from the results. At least this would have given the fans a race. This was especially disasterous since it happened in the US - a critical market F1 has been trying to reach for some time (the addition of Scott Speed might help - i used to race with him!).

    Anyway didn't realize there were so many TB F1 fans. Pretty cool. I too am a bit worried about the sport... all though not because it's a two team race as some said. It always is. That's a result of having 10 different manufacturers as opposed to the indy car stuff. I think Mosely is a huge problem. And the rule changes year to year make little sense. Reducing mechanical grip and making the cars more reliant on aero? :confused: The costs are pretty insane too... I'm just not so sure they're going about correcting the problems in the right way.
  19. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Points taken Tash, but all these points have been around for the whole 15 years I've been following F1, and yet the circus gets bigger every year. The only thing that changes is that sometimes it's Renault that wins everything, before them it was Ferrari. Williams had a few good years, as did Maclaren with Mikka Hakkinen. As long as the power players continue to shift, the interest will remain.

    Who sponsors these teams? Well, not Ernie Ball or Fender, that's for sure. It is indeed a big money sport. But that's to be expected of the premier class of any motorsport. The money arguement was supposed to be the end of GP bikes and the cheaper Superbikes were supposed to take over. Look how that panned out!
  20. Tash


    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    I think the biggest issue facing F1 now is the new hostility towards big money anything. Its less and less acceptable for companies to push huge amounts of cash into any endevor. Sure there will always be companies who will do it, but how many? I'm certain that number is smaller than it was in the past. And while the circus getting bigger makes the pie more attractive, it also increases the risk.

    The other issue F1 has to tackle is technology trickle down. The rules need to be such that companies have an incentive to compete beyond just prestige. It used to be that companies Honda and BMW were in F1 because they could test technology which made their road cars better. That isn't the case anymore. The materials used for engine and body fabrication are far too expensive to be applicable in the real world now. The biggest area where racing could benefit real world cars is in electronics development, as software is flexible to adapt and virtually free once created. But F1 cars exist in a vacum in this regard since the ban on "active driver aids" in 94. No adaptive suspension, no drive by wire, no computerized throttle control, no launch control (but traction control is fine, as long as it doesn't work below a certain speed???). Hell they can't even run ABS.

    The FIA needs to stop pretending F1 is a spec series and let the teams loose a bit.

    Edit: I'm a Ferrari fan, even now when they are taking a beating under the new rules. Michael and Kimi have been my favorite drivers for a while, but Alonso is earning points with me too. His defence against Michael at Imola was one of the best drives I've ever seen! I had flashbacks to watching rookie Schumacher fend off Alain Prost back in 93 or 94...that was one of the first F1 races I ever saw and I've been hooked since.

    I've thought for years that Alonso had real talent and have wanted to see what he'd be able to do with a top car. Now I know!

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