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Guru tells me not to do what I was going to do...Comments?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by rabid_granny, Jan 11, 2003.


  1. I visited our local bass guru and I asked him about some of the ideas I posted here. He told me not to do either one of them.

    a) I was going to add a 2x10 cabinet to my 1x15 combo. He said my combo was monaural and that the 2x10 would actually limit my sound - it isn't capable of handling anything other than mids. (It didn't have a tweeter nor two open slots at the bottom of the cabinet). The 2x10 would probably have blown out if I tried that. He said that only 2x10 cabinets have the highest failure rate of all cabinets.

    b) I was going to try doing a line-out to the FX return of a cheap 2x10 combo. He said that the signal would have been a really crappy and it wouldn't been very good.

    In the end, he recommended that I add another 1x15 cabinet made by Yorkville since the combo was designed to operate that way.

    If I got a new rig, he suggested it be bi-ampable (well documented at TB) with a 2x10 w/tweeter and a 15". The SWR Triad was also suggested.

    He also said that you can skimp anywhere except when you are purchasing speakers.


    Does anyone care to add their two cents while my brain is still digesting his comments?
     
  2. (I didn't mention this before but this is from Wayne at L&M!!!)
     
  3. jondog

    jondog

    Mar 14, 2002
    NYC metro area
    a) I was going to add a 2x10 cabinet to my 1x15 combo. He said my combo was monaural and that the 2x10 would actually limit my sound - it isn't capable of handling anything other than mids. (It didn't have a tweeter nor two open slots at the bottom of the cabinet). The 2x10 would probably have blown out if I tried that. He said that only 2x10 cabinets have the highest failure rate of all cabinets.

    Are you sure you got this right? Of course your combo is mono! I don't know if your Yorkvile is designed for an extension cab, but if it has an extension speaker out jack, plug in the 2x10 (check ohm match) and see if YOU like it.

    b) I was going to try doing a line-out to the FX return of a cheap 2x10 combo. He said that the signal would have been a really crappy and it wouldn't been very good.

    I personally wouldn't run out and do this, but crap is in the ear of the beholder. It shouldn't break anything so if you really want to give it a try and see if you like the tone.

    In the end, he recommended that I add another 1x15 cabinet made by Yorkville since the combo was designed to operate that way.

    And it wasn't designed for a 2x10? Sounds fishy to me.

    If I got a new rig, he suggested it be bi-ampable (well documented at TB) with a 2x10 w/tweeter and a 15". The SWR Triad was also suggested.

    I don't like biamped tone, you might, try it out! This rig is a lot more $ than just adding an extension cab to a combo.

    He also said that you can skimp anywhere except when you are purchasing speakers.

    Speakers are what you actually hear, so they are very important, but I wouldn't say you can skimp elsewhere. It's no fun hearing your cheap cable crackle through an expensive rig.

    Does anyone care to add their two cents while my brain is still digesting his comments? [/B][/QUOTE]
     
  4. Yeah, I think the dual combo threads were all started by me!

    I really don't know what to say. I would be inclined to believe the guy at the music store because what he said and how he explained it was intuitive. However, I can't recall any recent threads that said you can't hook up a 2x10 to a 1x15.

    Jondog, my combo runs at 150w @ 4 ohms and 184w @ 2 ohms. It has an extension jack in the back. What I wrote is pretty much exactly what the guy at the store said.

    Wayne never mentioned specific brands. He just said that 2x10 have the highest failure rate and that if I was going to set up a rig, he would get a biampable head and a 1x15, 2x10 and a tweeter.

    I can't see why I can't add a 2x10 though. I emailed Yorkville and they said that the preamps and power amps are similar between the 2x10 combo and 1x15 combo. I'm going to email them again about this.

    As for the dual combo idea, I'm still playing around with the idea. If I find a good 2x10 on the cheap, I'll lug my 1x15 and try it out.

    Right now, I'm happy with my combo. I paid practically nothing for it so it's not like I would be sacrificing anything if I upgraded. But I think I'm going to stop worry about wattage and tone and start practicing my scales more. I only went into the store to kill some time and thought I'd get his opinion while I was there.
     
  5. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I agree that some 2x10's are designed to handle bottoms and other's arent. I think you should contact the store again and clarify this before you make any decisions.

    I send a full range signal to my 2x10 (Eden) but couldn't get enough clean bottom end for my liking. I added a 15 and got my bottom end and even run the Bass eq much lower than previously. There's no need to boost it cos the 15 does that naturally. As a result the 2x10 gets a less bassy signal and is much happier.
     
  6. jondog

    jondog

    Mar 14, 2002
    NYC metro area
    If you guys know and respect this guy I'm probably wrong but to me it sounds like a salesman recommending that you spend more $ so he can earn more comission. You asked about an extension cab and he ends up recommending a new baimped rig. :rolleyes:

    Practicing is always the best idea! :) One practice technique I just started today is using headphones instead of the amp. I've been having trouble w/ finger noise and clacks and w/ headphones I can *really* concetrate on making them go away.
     
  7. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Total Hyper-Elite Member Gold Supporting Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
    Wayne's a Yorkville dealer, isn't he.
     
  8. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Total Hyper-Elite Member Gold Supporting Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
    Well, I was just downstairs playing through my new WT-800, with a D-115XL under a D-210XLT (and no, I don't turn the tweeter off). This is perfect for a bi-amp situation, because you can adjust the crossover frequency until it sounds bitchen, the adjust the balance between the two cabinets until it sounds mo' bitchen. This will take some getting used to. (Pardon my hanging preposition.)

    By the way, did you know that the Mackie forum automatically censors the word "bitchen?" I have to spell it "beetchen."
     
  9. DirtDog

    DirtDog

    Jun 7, 2002
    The Deep North
    From your specs rabid_granny, I'll take a guess that you're playing through a BM200 (1x15) - I have that exact amp and have run it live and in rehearsal many times with the 8-ohm Yorkville 300W 2x10 extension cab and had no problems. Added to that is that I use the SansAmp BDDI to fatten up the sound.

    Now, with this cab, you are not getting the full 2-ohm load and nor generating the 184W, but you are getting a bit more power and lots more volume (or air moving, anyways) with the additional cab. And, the tone does not suffer any with the 2x10 added into the mix, IMO.

    Summary: the Yorkville 2x10 extension cab works like a charm if you want a bit more punch and volume for only a few extra hundred dollars. I'd say go for it.

    DD
     
  10. Munji, yes, Wayne is a Yorkville dealer since Long & McQuade owns Yorkville (or something like that - Yorkville wouldn't be around if not for L&M).

    Wayne didn't try to sell me a specific system. All he did was say that my combo wasn't designed to take a 2x10 and was supposed to be run with a specially designed 1x15 cabinet. I emailed Mike Holman @ Yorkville (we've been communicating over the last few weeks) to get this opinion.

    All he said was that ideally you would have a 1x15, some 10s and a tweeter with a biampable head. Then he mentioned that an SWR makes a cabinet called a Triad that carries that. (I just remembered that I mentioned that I was in an band that did 80's covers - I think he was trying to imitate the gear of the 80's. He went on to say how 80's bassists went nuts with their gear).

    I'm just surprised about his comments about blowing 2x10 cabinets through a monaural combo. It sounds like a lot of people at TB are running 1x15 combos with 2x10 cabinets but I haven't heard any warnings about this.

    Petebass, Wayne didn't immediately dismiss my extra cab idea. He said my combo was designed to best run with the other 1x15. Then he went on to talk about an ideal set-up tonewise.

    Dirtdog, the system you described is exactly what I was thinking about: 1x15 combo with a 2x10 cabinet plus a Sansamp BDDI. I already have the BDDI and the 1x15 combo. I think my combo is older than the BM200 series.

    Dirtdog, I was also wondering about your tone. When you say "punch", do you mean I could hear a Precision "thump" better?
     
  11. Did I just read that Munji uses and actually LIKES a 15" speaker anywhere near his rig??

    Guess it would be a good night to go out and buy a lottery ticket. :)
     
  12. Gabu

    Gabu

    Jan 2, 2001
    Lake Elsinore, CA
    :eek: :confused: :D
     
  13. Wayne's a good guy but what he told is is just pure bunk. 2x10's failing? Any cab will fail if you abuse it. The line out of your FX send is just fine, there is nothing wrong with it as it comes directly from your preamp. I personally HATE the way bi-amping sounds and I think you'll find more than a few people around here that agree. It was all the rage a while back but alot of folks have just gone back to a full range signal, happily.
     
  14. I received a reply from Mike Holman of Yorkville and he said I could easily add a BC210 or a newer XM210 cabinet to my combo. He also said there has never been a special cabinet made for my combo.

    Hmmm...looks like Wayne has made a bad first impression on me - I'm a bit confused. I'll go back and ask him about the 2x10 later.

    And I'll assume that I can add a 2x10 cabinet to my combo.
     
  15. DirtDog

    DirtDog

    Jun 7, 2002
    The Deep North
    R_G, it sounds like there's not a lot of difference between your older amp and my newer one, save for cosmetics and a couple of tone shaping controls, so I'm going to assume that they're one and the same for the purposes of your question.

    I found the BM200 alone to be very "boomy" - I do not use the limiter or contour on the amp but use the BDDI for more control over tone shaping. I have been running the amp basically like an uncolored power amp with the BDDI generally at the SVT settings. Using the BDDI, I got what I perceived to be more volume without driving the gain on the amp to 10. the BDDI preamp gave me that little bit more gain on the input allowing me to get rid of the natural "boominess" of the amp/1x15.

    After rehearsing extensively with this setup (with a passive P/J Godin SD4), I added the Yorkville 2x10 cab (rental). Again, I didn't need to drive the amp a hard to get a good level of volume. The 2x10 also added the upper/mids that the 1x15 missed - resulting in that "punch" I mentioned - basically a more focused mid-range bite but still keeping the depth of th 1x15. I think that's why a lot of us like the 1x15/2x10 matchup. How P-bass would sound through this, I wouldn't be able to tell you - you'll have to experiment!

    I have since replaced my Godin with a MM Stringray 4. The active electronics on this guitar have given me another level of tone control and I have started to bypass the SansAmp at times and the tone is still quite acceptable. I have also started putting together a component based system (SWR SM400S + SWR Goliath 2x10 and SoB 1x15), but have yet to play with that extensively. I'm going this route for the increase in power and better tone, but isn't that what we're all after?

    I have found the BDDI/Yorville BM200/2x10 extension cab setup to be a very workable solution for many applications - from rehearsal to medium and large stages. The flexibility that you'll have with a system like this is exceptional for the nominal extra cost of the 2x10 extension cabinet. I don't think you'll be disappointed and you certainly won't break or damage anything doing so.

    Are there better sounding systems that are more optimally configured to give you that big, fat tone you're looking for? Well, sure, but you're also looking at completely replacing your existing system at the cost of at least a few thousand dollars.

    This is my experience as an actual user (weekly band practices with regular medium-sized club gigs in a loud four-piece blues/rock band) and a more technically-oriented amp-savvy person can probably point to a few shortcomings with this setup, but hey, the bottom line is that it does work.

    I'd take Mike Holman's advice at face value and get yourself either of the Yorkville 2x10s (or any properly impedence-matched 2x10 cabs that are rated for that power level for that matter). Let me know how it works out for you!!

    Good Luck,

    DD
     
  16. I also don't like to biamp! I tried to like it; but, since I am too close to the rig hear the combined tone, I always use full range signal for my rig with the 18 and 2x10. I do however have the ability to balance the cabinets via separate amp channels. Specifically, I sometimes use a fairly cheesy pressed-frame 18 made by Eminence (but without the logo) with a Goliath Jr. II and an SWR SM-400. This is a terrific rig for small to medium venues. Biamping (lows to 18 and highs to 2x10) really makes it sound pretty much quieter and without presence. The cabinets compliment one another quite well running full range. I'd say buy a cabinet that you really like to run as an extension speaker for now and get more power later when you have more money.
    -Wes
     
  17. Groovey! Thanks everyone for the 411. I think I'll go with an extension cab and ditch the dual combo idea. I'll probably spring for a 2x10 later, when we are closer to performing live.

    Dirtdog, I think I'm going to save your post on my computer for future reference too. :D
     
  18. DirtDog

    DirtDog

    Jun 7, 2002
    The Deep North
    Anything to help out a fellow Canuck!

    DD
     
  19. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Canuck Amateur

    What a lot of people don't realize is that there are more speakers blown by underpowered amps than there are by amps that are too powerful.

    An amplifier that is really pushed will clip. When it clips (the sine wave is actually clipped because of lack of power supply) then the amp can send out spikes of pure DC to the speakers. Smaller speakers will fry quicker than bigger ones because they have smaller voice coils.

    I tried the Yorkville 2x10 cabinet with an Ampeg SVT3 Pro at L&M North York and it sounded awesome.

    Most combos tend to be either low or mid-powered. As you push them to their limits with liberal uses of the volume control and an extension speaker it may clip and tah dah, the first speaker to go will probably be the 10 as opposed to the 15.

    I have a Peavey Deltabass amp (160W @ 4 ohm) and ended up buying a 15" Peavey Black Widow for it because I wanted it to be able to take the abuse from the "underpowered" head, even though it's able to handle 300W.

    Your idea of the 2x10 with the BM200 combo will probably work fine, just don't go nuts with the volume control, with all those speakers to push, your amp will be working hard. I'm sure you'll be able to hear your tone degrade anyway as the volume goes up.

    LOL
     
  20. Bob Lee (QSC)

    Bob Lee (QSC) In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio! Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Jul 3, 2001
    Costa Mesa, Calif.
    Technical Communications Developer, QSC Audio
    Clipping at high power is bad for speakers, but it's not because of DC. If the amp puts out DC, it's either defective or is a direct-coupled amp with something putting DC into it.

    When an amp clips, it's actually putting out more power than it is rated for, and that may be too much for the speaker(s). Too much power going into a speaker can overheat the voice coil, causing it to burn out.