Hawkes Concert vs Panormo

Discussion in 'Basses [DB]' started by MarkH, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. MarkH


    Apr 12, 2003
    London, U.K.
    Hi there,

    I'm currently looking at a Hawkes Concert and a Hawkes Panormo with a view to possibly buying one of them
    Other than the price and some elements of design, what's the difference?

  2. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    I don't know, I haven't played either? You're looking at and hearing them, right?

    I mean generally, the Panormo is based on Vincenzo's designs and the Concert is based on Simon Fendt's. You want to find out which bass was actually built in England as opposed to outside the country and imported (being rarer?), but the bottom line, if they are in the same financial ballpark, which is the bass that sounds like the bass in your head?
  3. arnoldschnitzer

    arnoldschnitzer AES Fine Instruments

    Feb 16, 2002
    Brewster, NY, USA
    There were Hawkes' made in England, France and Germany. The English are the most sought-after. Some of the French have an "F" purfled on the back button. Other than that, it takes an expert eye to tell them apart. I've seen the "Panormo", "Professor" and "Concert" models, and they all seem about the same, shape-wise. All have huge shoulders and a sharply-sloping back bevel. Perhaps these designations addressed the wood quality or some other features?
  4. Ken Smith is obsessed with these type of questions, so he'll respond....also several of our regulars have Hawkes' (Robin Ruscio for one).
  5. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    Gee, I though we just covered this in the "Ouch" thread. Ok then, here is my quote about these Basses from the other thread..

    "1) How do we know it is actualy an English Hawks. Most of them were made in Germany and France with only a small portion being made in England."

    I said that after the Bass was referred to being English. Try also reading about them here; http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2569.htm and also here; http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2460.htm
  6. bass_means_LOW


    Apr 12, 2004
    Las Vegas
    Ken, I've never actually seen another Panormo except on websites, so I 'm not familiar with any others. My Panormo looks in shape exactly like the Hawkes Panormo at the first website-swell back, same outline. At the base of my scroll is a beautifully carved lyre; as well, my Panormo has four seperate machines, one for each string. The machines look original as there are no screw holes that would suggest of having a plate at one time. Would these have been standard practice?
  7. MarkH


    Apr 12, 2003
    London, U.K.
    Thanks for the replies…

    Yes, I have the two of them on approval so I can both hear and see them loud and clear.
    I do though, have to use a certain amount of ‘imagination’, as I can’t adjust the sound post, change the string height or play it for six months and ‘open’ it up.

    Thanks Ken for the link to the Contrabass site….I’m sure we’ve all looked with fascination at how much they cost in 1920 (…and wished Granddad had bought us one and stuck it in the attic!!)

    I was looking more for experiential, anecdotal information…how they record, travel, any quirks they have.
    Does their value hold?
    How you tell where they were made? (were all Panormos made in England as the link suggests?)
    Who plays them? and, I suppose, whether or not it might be better to spend a bit more money and get a ‘name’ bass.

    You know, the kind of questions that wake you up in the middle of the night when you’re about to sell your Granddad (..the one that didn’t buy the bass!!) to finally get an expensive instrument.

  8. anonymous0726

    anonymous0726 Guest

    Nov 4, 2001
    I friend of mine has a French Hawkes. Not sure which model. It's a maintenance nightmare for him. I don't know that it might just be his instrument -- bad old repairs and the like or what. I haven't heard this otherwise about Hawkes, so take it with a grain of salt.
  9. brutuscheezcake

    brutuscheezcake Supporting Member

    Nov 8, 2003
    Bodega Bay
    hey there markh,

    what a choice to be made! i envy you your choice, just not making it.

    may i enquire as to a "ballpark" price on these instruments? what does a hawkes go for?

    thanks much!

  10. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    Let's not use the name 'Panormo' so loosly. We are discussing Hawks Panormo 'Copies'.. made in several models and countries. I believe that 'maybe' the Hawks 'Panormo' with the "H" on the back was made in England. I don't know that much about the Professor or Concert models or IF any were made in England for sure.

    Here is another interesting 'eariler 'Hawks' model Bass.. http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2299.htm
  11. MarkH


    Apr 12, 2003
    London, U.K.

    I'm rather hoping this isn't a copy.

    The bass Has the 'H' on the back and 'Hawkes and sons' on the plate on the Pegbox etc.

    I'm pretty sure we're talking about the real thing here.

  12. MarkH


    Apr 12, 2003
    London, U.K.
    Sorry Ken,

    I see what you mean.

    I suppose it is ultimately a copy of a Panormo.
  13. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    It may be made by a man named Green. I will have to research further for his first name. If that's the case, then a small amount of the Hawks Basses may be handmade English. They could also have been imported and finished in England as well.. Let's not rule out the 'trade' business. It went on in a healthy manner. France and England were trading partners. If it has outer rib linings then I would guess Germany. If not, then France or England. I have never seen a French Bass with outer linings. Some older English Basses from the 18th-19th century had outer linings but not many. If it has original English gears then it might have been imported in the White form France of Germany and then finished in England if not being made entirly in England. If it has French Gears, then I would pick France, etc.

    If these Green Basses were labelled like the other English, it mighg of given them a higher value but the Hawks assocation seems to drag down the price with the Hawks saga attached.

    The same goes for Antoniazzi. Some of his Basses are labelled by a trad company in Italy in the early 20th century. These may be harder to sell than those with the makers complete label.