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Hearing the changes

Discussion in 'Music Theory [DB]' started by SunneyBoy, Oct 16, 2009.


  1. Hi There

    has anyone read "Hearing the Changes" by jerry coker and if so what are your thoughts on the book

    thank you in advance
     
  2. johnz

    johnz

    Apr 26, 2008
    Ashland, OR
    It's one of the most useful books on music I've found - ever! I was kind of thinking of function "cells" before; but, this really helped nail it down. I suspect that those with really good formal training might find it a bit pedestrian; however, (for me at least), it's been invaluable in figuring out how to effectively memorize tunes.
     
  3. thank you very much did you find it help your perception and recognition of the harmonic movment within tunes? I think I will definately give it a go.
     
  4. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    I read through some of it, it's not bad. I think you will get a hell of alot more mileage if you read it, and then memorize a bunch of standards in all 12 keys. The reading part is easy.
     
  5. johnz

    johnz

    Apr 26, 2008
    Ashland, OR
    +100

    It actually did help my harmonic conceptualization. But, as Huy says, the real benefit comes when you put the information into practice.
     
  6. Just one small note on the subject of learning a tune in all 12 keys. It has been my experience that if you really learn a tune you are hearing the intervalic changes. This is vastly different from memorizing chord changes for a particular tune. If you truly hear the intervals in a particular composition, you don't have to "learn" the composition in 12 keys because you will already be able to play it in any key based on your understanding of the appropriate intervals. :cool:
     
  7. Marc Piane

    Marc Piane

    Jun 14, 2004
    Chicago
    +1
     
  8. How about learning it in one key. Then transposing a 4th . Then a 6th. 3 keys. Like this?
    I^ = Maj.7


    4/4| I^9 |I^9 | II13b9 | II13b9 | ii-7 | bII7 |I^7 | bII^7 :|| etc.

    in F then Bb then D or Eb. Should be enough right?


    How "bout Lush Life. You kind of know it in Db and the Chick singer who never sings it....wants to sing it in G at 3am after you've drank a bottle red and nobody but you knows the tune ........Have fun.
     
  9. I find this amusing Chuck! I don't care if it's a 4th, a 6th, a minor 2nd. If you REALLY KNOW the tune then you know the tune. HOWEVER, The 3am bar scenario is real life and then it's everyman for himself:help: I wanna know who let the chick singer up there at the end of the night anyway? :cool:
     
  10. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    +1. Yup, you gotta at least run through 12 keys the first few tunes then your ear starts building that hearing "muscle". I only do like 6 keys now:
    1) Original Key
    2) One step up
    3) One step down
    4) 4th
    5) 5th
    6) In Key of G. I dunno why, but G is the clincher for me somehow.

    I do all 6 and then run them each through a buncha diff'rent styles: bossa, waltz, 5/4, swing, 2 feel, 6/8 etc. I try to do the melodies too.
     
  11. Yeah, when it's your wife, what do you do? I just tell her no .....n' way and she starts the tune anyway.
     
  12. Seriously how do you break down a tune like "Ipanema" when you get to the bridge. How do think of the modulation to Gb , A and Bb when your in to F on the (B) section and your transposing. Your telling me you don't use numbers in your head to represent the tendencies. I can tell you this, alot of players who don't read a lick do. Especially in Nashville.They think, I ii iii IV V7 vi vii*. I know for fact that Tal Farlow thought this way and so did Wes Montgomery.
     
  13. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    I've never heard that bridge before, Chuck. Do they just play that in Nashville?
     
  14. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    Yes you can think of things in Roman Numerals but sometimes you can't rely on the "key" that the song is in. If it modulates, you might have to ditch the original key and think in relation to the new key.

    So if something starts in F and modulates to Gb. You just say to your self: "at bar X, modulate down a half step, then play bridge (I ii iii IV V7), etc, ". Doesn't have to stick to hard and fast rules. Sometimes you just have to be pragmatic and figure out a way to get you through the tune.
     
  15. Well said Huy. Although I'm not a music teacher, I am an educator. Based on lots of scientific data that has been published about learning styles over many years, it is generally accepted in academia that there are many learning styles and learning modalities. Learning is messy and comes down to whatever works for you.

    Although the Nashville numbering system might be helpful in some instances to some players, it will not always provide the answer. Relying solely on a Nashville numbering system may not help you with the other important chord tones within each chord in a given progression. Ear training, practice practice practice and recognition of standard progression sequences is also part of what allows us to be able to play a tune in more than one key. Each of us might internalize the information we need to play a tune in all 12 keys differently because each of us might get there "learn" a bit differently. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how you get there. It just matters if you can do it. :cool:
     
  16. 4/4| Gb^7 | Gb^7 |Cb9 | Cb9 | F#-9 | F#-9 | D9 | D9 | G-9 | G-9 | Eb9 | Eb9 | A-7 | D7b9 | G-9 | C7b9 |


    My point was does he relate back to the key of F or does he learn the changes by function in infered keys? I know this stuff is subjective but personally I find that when you sing the melody to the tunes with "movable do" it helps alot in hearing the changes in other keys. Not to be fuddy duddy but when I sing the bridge on this tune, I changed keys 3 times. Gb major - 4/4 | Ti - (ti) | do ti la ti la| so. la | / / / / |
    A major - | Ti - (ti) | do ti la ti la| so. la | / / / / |
    Bb major - | Ti - (ti) | do ti la ti la| so. la | / / / / | If you sang this tune in movable Do Ed, how would you do it ? I think where you change keys in solfegio tells you alot about the tune. I know I refer to Amajor and Bb major but I here it that way. The F#-9 sounds like A/ F# or a pedal tone to me.
     
  17. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Chuck, you're ether drinking too much or not enough. It was a joke, son. You gotta stay alert or you miss these things. The progression you had mapped out was just an ascending major scale harmonised diatonically, I was pretending that I thought that you were saying THAT was the bridge.

    It was more funnier before I had to explain it....
     
  18. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    *sigh* :rollno::D

    And I'm not a teacher nor an educator. I'm just a n00b. :p
     
  19. Just subscribing to a good thread. Thanks.
     
  20. Ed , I am sorry. I get it now. That is funny. You are better than me because you don't need a drink to do that. But, my wife has been ..... in' and moanin that I don't love her anymore because she thinks I am chatting with other women. I had to jump off before I could read everything. Meanwhile I'm on this computer talking about changes to tunes I have been playing since 1972. Last night I had a dream and Johnny Cash was singing Desafinado.........now that's ....'ed up. I picked a lousy tune to talk about transposing. When was the last time you played it in anything but F. Somebody pick a better tune to talk about.
     

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