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Help with 410 cabinet and low b

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by cegrant, Apr 4, 2009.


  1. cegrant

    cegrant

    Apr 4, 2009
    Buford, GA
    I have an Eden WT 800 going into an Eden 410 Xlt. The cab does not seem to handle the low b very well unless I turn the bass down to levels I'm not happy with. Any suggestions on a cabinet that can handle the low or at least sub 30hz useable frequency.

    I am new to talk bass but not new to the bass
     
  2. Nighttrain1127

    Nighttrain1127 Supporting Member

    Nov 27, 2004
    Near Worcester MA
    If you are boosting the bass so you can hear the fundamentals of the low b at useable sound levels you are overdriving your amp amd cab. Most bass( non botique) bass cabs start rolling off the low frequencies at around 50 hz and at 30 hz are well down below useable levels. You need a huge power amp and subs to make useable sound at 30 hz.
     
  3. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Welcome, cegrant!

    My understanding is that the first few harmonics carry most of the energy of the very low notes, and that full-power reproduction of the fundamental is not required for correct pitch perception. The ear/brain system infers the missing fundamental from the harmonic sequence. This is good news, because reproducing very low frequencies at high levels requires very large boxes and/or very high power. In practice, full-power reproduction of the 62 Hz first harmonic of a low B will convey that note with authority. So I suggest that pursuing full-power output down to 31 Hz is not cost-effective.

    Now the other side of the equation is, what happens to the woofer as it tries to reproduce that 31 Hz fundamental? In many cases, that is so far below the cabinet tuning frequency that the actual mechanical power handling is very low, like maybe 50 watts or less at that frequency (even though the cab may be rated at 800 watts or more). So even if only, say, 15% of the enery in the low B is carried by that first harmonic, if that note is played at a level loud enough to put more than 50 watts into that first harmonic, the woofer will go into over-excursion and distort (fart).

    So the possible solutions are to use a cabinet that is tuned low enough that it won't be driven into over-excursion by that 31 Hz fundamental, or use a high-pass filter so that a powerful 31 hz signal never even gets to the amplifier, let alone the cab.

    Some cab manufacturers you might take a look at include Accugroove, Acme, and Barefaced. I'm sure there are others.
     
  4. Try adding a D210XST cab...
     
  5. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    Intergalactic Mind Space CA
    Song Surgeon slow downer software- full 4 hour demo
  6. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    Not sure what is going on there. The 410XLT with a bridged Eden800 has produced some of the best live B string tones I've ever heard. Yes, it's more that first and second harmonic, but that's IMO what you typically want in a mix, so you can clearly hear the note definition and not just boom.

    The 410UL and the EdenXST both have deeper tuning, and will bring out more of that first harmonic that most feel is the 'meat' of a good B string tone.

    The only cab I know of that legitimately will reproduce the B string fundamental is the Acme Low B line of cabs. However, careful what you wish for. In a mix, that BIG low end can overwhelm mids and upper mids IMO and IME.
     
  7. cegrant

    cegrant

    Apr 4, 2009
    Buford, GA
    Ok thanks for the replies. Alright I have a direct question to Kjung. I am not running in bridged mode. I am only using half of the amp. I have not considered bridged mode.

    Now to everyone else. Tell me about experiences with the Ampeg 410 HLF. The write up on all ads for this say useable down to 28hz.
     
  8. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    The 410 HLF is a real mixed bag that some people absolutely love, but I can't stand it. It's got more of an accent on the low freqs, most definitely. But whereas some people call if beef, I call it mud.
     
  9. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member


    First, I hate to say it, but the Ampeg 410HLF is probably one of my least favorite cabs. It does have a lot of bottom, but NO WAY does it reproduce frequencies at that level (maybe at -10db!), and the whole voicing of that cab is dark and a bit wooly to my ear.

    Is your 410XLT 8ohms? If so, you are only putting about 200 watts into it. No wonder your B string notes sound weak:confused: If it's 4ohms, that's still only around 400 watts. As I always say, power is not so much about getting louder, but getting those low notes to sound open, clean and even (uncompressed).

    If you have a 4ohm 410XLT and an older WT800 model A, you are screwed unfortunately. If you have either an 8ohm model, or a 4ohm model and you have the newer WT800 B or C version, bridge that puppy and your issue will (IMO) disappear:)
     
  10. CLMSHQ

    CLMSHQ

    Apr 17, 2007
    Danielson, CT
    Avatar 410 or Ampeg 410HLF.
     
  11. babebambi

    babebambi

    Jan 7, 2008
    YTZ
    I would rather add a D410xst
    go dual-mono with the wt800
    Match the impenitence of the xst with your xlt

    Power output between 8 ohm or 4 ohm is not big runing on one side of wt800
    300watt@8ohm
    400watt@4ohm
    550watt@2ohm

    2ohm is only available (safe) on model after 2005, which is the B or C model; thou some A model were upgrade to the same spec, those are the exception.
     
  12. cegrant

    cegrant

    Apr 4, 2009
    Buford, GA
    now I feel I am getting somewhere. I have A 410 HLF 4 ohm with a "C" version of the amp. No doubt the rig is powerful. I play a 07 & 08 jazz 5 through it. I will try bridge tomorrow night at practice. Thanks to everyone for your input. Please do not stop the suggestions yet.
     
  13. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    That will be a BIG difference when you bridge that amp. Make sure to try that with your 410XLT, which is a much nicer sounding cab than the Ampeg IMO.
     
  14. BassmanPaul

    BassmanPaul Gold Supporting Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    Toronto Ontario Canada
    Welcome Cegrant. If you want a real B string look at the Acme B4 or a pair of the B2. IMO the best damn cabinets out there. acmebass.com

    Paul
     

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