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High end/Low end mess

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by BassDudeSA, Aug 18, 2007.


  1. Hi guys, I've been playing bass about 30 years, but it is surprising how little thought I have really put into my amps and speakers over the years.

    I have been playing over the last five years through a really nice Carvin 1,000 bi-amped head as well as the matching 1-18" for the lows and 4-10" cab for the highs and mids. Since I am usually standing within 3-10 feet from my rig for all rehearsals and shows I adjust and EQ my amp to sound great to me, where I'm standing and playing. I let the PA handle me up front, but my amp provides all my sound onstage.

    This is the problem, in front of my amp I'm rockin', I go to the middle of the stage and the high end is fading and the low end is really booming, I go to the guitar players side of the stage and my amp is a rumbling mess. So I turn down the bass and up the treble EQ/knobs on my amp and that helps, but it's not enough. So I really crank up the highs and then I can hear some clarity on the other side of the stage, but where I'm at, 95% of the time near my amp, there is so much high end that I can barely take it, but my guitarist is always complaining about my muddy sound on his side.

    Question: does that 18" just throw out too much low end, and does my 4-10 mid/high cab have a problem with "throw" where the sound just disipates too quickly? Would a high end 4-10 (or even 2-10) cab carry highs further? I'm just tired of a great close by sound and a blurry mess more than 10 feet away. Anthything I'm not thinking of? Thanks.
     
  2. Spencer!

    Spencer!

    Jun 25, 2006
    Seattle
    Owner, Pike Amplification & 3Leaf Audio
    Low end frequencies just carry much farther than high end frequencies. Try playing without the 18 and turn up the lows on the 410.
     
  3. greenboy

    greenboy

    Dec 18, 2000
    remote mountain cabin Montana
    greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
    Forget all the "throw" stuff you may hear, and just realize that the lower frequencies are, the less directional they are, and that the midrange and higher frequencies are more directional - ie, most of the midrange and treble is going in the direction the cab is facing.
     
  4. KeithPas

    KeithPas Supporting Member

    May 16, 2000
    Poulsbo,Wa
    Try EQing for your ideal sound and send your bass through the monitors for your other band members. There is no way to have the bass sound the same all over the stage. The nature of bass signals is that they sound very different depending on where you are hearing them from. The person standing off to the side is never going to hear the actual high end of the cabinet compared to the person standing relatively close to the front of the cabinet.
     

  5. Thanks for the input guys. Unfortunately we just use small monitors onstage for vocals only, so no bass through those. Sounds like the consensus is going to be that I point my amp sideways onstage rather than forward. And we'll let the PA pick it up more in front. This way since the highs will be pointing sideways, our drummer and guitarist will be able to hear them, rather than just a rumbling 18" by itself. I just got so used to pointing it forwards that it's been a long time since I tried the sideways thing.
     
  6. KeithPas

    KeithPas Supporting Member

    May 16, 2000
    Poulsbo,Wa
    That sounds like your best option to me. You can even angle your 4/10 sideways and keep the 1/18 facing forward. Stage tone can be a real PIA, especially when the tone you hear sounds great.
     
  7. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    I'll add to what KeithPas said and say try setting up the whole rig facing sideways assuming everything out front is handled by PA. Your rig will be projecting across the players on stage putting the bandmembers more in the "sweet spot". Can also try running both cabs in full range instead of biamping, this sounded better on the carvin rigs I had. The biamping to my ear left a hole in the sound and there was always too many speakers putting out mids and highs compared to one putting out lows. They'd both have to be 8ohm cabs though to run your head bridged, if you have a 4ohm mixed in there the resistance will drop too low for the head and you'll have to run one per channel. Just a couple ideas to try.
     
  8. greenboy

    greenboy

    Dec 18, 2000
    remote mountain cabin Montana
    greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
    Always a good practice, and if the angle and stage width isn't too much you can actually carry non-PA-supported gigs that way too depending on room size and shape. After all, as the sound travels outwards, the cone of influence is wider anyway.

    Yeah, for that rig usually the best way to run it is dual mono - full range.
     
  9. Yeah, I have tried that and there are certainly some advantages to going full range with both cabs, and in some situations it did sound better, although missing some high end as compared to bi-amping (at least when standing right in front). But my problem with that is I play 5-string basses and play alot of aggressive low B, thus rattling those 10s. Maybe it is the quality of these Carvin speakers, but I just thought going full range with this 4-10 cab was too much for it. Still, it is worth another try, especially with my new sideways angle that I'll be changing too.
     
  10. greenboy

    greenboy

    Dec 18, 2000
    remote mountain cabin Montana
    greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
    Yeah, it's definitely situational. Especially with the newer Carvin 18" driver, the ability to deal out substantial lows is great. And bi-amping can give better clarity, focus, and put SPL in the right place when designed properly. But the Tens like almost any on the market aren't up to having that same signal dealt to them without beginning to sound threatened. A retrofit of Eminence Deltalite 2010 can alleviate this somewhat. Thus dual-mono with separate final gain controls on each side as opposed to bridging sometimes is a sacrifice that one contemplates.

    A better full-range scenario at high levels would involve separate EQ or a high-pass filter on the 410. As I recall there are separate effects loops for each side of the amp. That'll only work in dual-mono but not in bridged mode of course : {

    A better bi-amp scenario would be to have TWO Fifteen or Eighteen cabs to a 410, or to use a 210 on top. That way the output balance is better between cabs and the power amps are used to better effect.
     
  11. You didn't mention your mids setting. If you are scooping your mids, this could definitely be part of the problem. Contrary to some popular opinion, it is the mids that cut through the mix. Try dialing the mids to 2-3 oclock and roll off the bass some, see what you get from 30 feet or more out.
     
  12. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx

    The best luck I've had biamping using bass cabs was with a 15 or 18 and a 210 top, seemed to be the best balance of high and low output. If you're hellbent on using the 410 for the top you'll likely need another 18 on the bottom but then you're getting into carrying around a monster rig that shouldn't be necessary if you're not playing to FOH.

    Another idea would be to sell the cabs and get one LS1523 PA cab, 2-15's, 2-6's and a tweet and biampable. Greenboy has the lowdown on those cabs.
     
  13. Yeah, I've always wondered about using a PA cab for bass, but I never actually tried it. Maybe some day I will. Regarding matching the low cab with the high cab, yeah it does sound like a better match to use a 2-10 with a single 15 or 18, however the 18 that I am using (standard Carvin 118 cab) puts out so much low end that it practically overshadows the four 10s on it's own, but I have my amp set where the 410 is also carrying all the mids. My guess is that a 115 and a 210 would be a good fit, but the 118 and 410 seems to work fine for me (now that I am pointing my amp sideways onstage!).
     

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