Psst... Ready to join TalkBass and start posting, make new friends, sell your gear, and more?  Register your free account in 30 seconds.

Horizontal?Vertical?Diagonal?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by badgrandad, Sep 22, 2005.


  1. O.K. I need to ask! It seems that there has been some discussion that setting your speaker cab so that your speakers are aligned vertically gives better results then if left horizontally. Does this apply to only 2-10s or larger speakers as well, and how do the diagonally mounted speakers fit into this phenominon?
     
  2. Chasarms

    Chasarms Casual Observer

    May 24, 2001
    Bettendorf, IA USA
    How would you go about mounting a speaker diagonally?
     
  3. A9X

    A9X

    Dec 27, 2003
    Sinny, Oztraya
    After enough beers, it would seem diagonal.
     
  4. Take a lesson from the pro sound guys with unlimited resources and budgets:

    mount vertically

    Side by side mounting, or the typical 4x10 square causes lobing and combing, and all the nasty effects of non-vertical mounted drivers. But hey, it looks cool...

    :D
     
  5. Side by side is ok if you cross the drivers over at a frequency whose half-wavelength is less than the distance between the driver centers. That's why you see line array boxes with the larger drivers on the outside and the smaller ones closer to the center... Of course, this applies to vertical stacking too. So, the crux is where the crossover point is. For example if you vertically align a bunch of tens and either don't use a HF driver or cross them over at say 3.5kHz, you're going to get comb filters above about 650 Hz. However, vertical tends to be better anyway because it helps give some control of vertical dispersion of the lower frequencies. But you do need a fairly large array for this to be really effective.

    The 410 configuration usually ends up with the worst of all worlds.... :D

    For my money, if you want a cabinet with a nice flat response and limited comb filters, a design where there is one driver per frequency band is best, or barring that, multiple identical drivers crossed over low enough so that they combine mostly in phase..

    Say, 12+6+ HF driver or 15+10+HF
     
  6. Many of the new 2-12 speaker boxes have the speakers mounted diagonally, and I have seen it done in some 2-10 boxes as well. I know it allows the box to be narrower, but does it do away with the phase cancelation problems of the horizontal array.
     

  7. No. But, there's not much to be gained by a vertical array of 2 drivers anyway, especially if you're listening off-axis. The phase issues are a function of frequency and driver placement. The overall orientation doesn't matter all that much, especially in an array of 2.

    If you're reproducing frequencies whose half-wavelengths are shorter than the distance between the driver centers, you're going to have phase problems no matter how the drivers are aligned.
     
  8. Chasarms

    Chasarms Casual Observer

    May 24, 2001
    Bettendorf, IA USA

    Oh, now I get what you are talking about.
     
  9. SnoMan

    SnoMan Words Words Words Supporting Member

    Jan 27, 2001
    Charleston, WV
    I feel to truly get the most out of my speakers..... I'm gonna need more then 3 deminsions :eek:
     
  10. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    I don't know if you've seen Euphonic Audio's ad for their NL-410, but they seem to be claiming they've overcome the laws of acoustics.

    Personally, I'd love to hear a vertically stacked pair of their NL-210.
     

  11. Unless they're running everything from about 600Hz to the tweeter crossover point out of a single driver (or the tweeter crossover point is that low) that range of frequencies will exhibit comb filtering.

    They certainly have their LF act together. A well executed transmission line will couple with the drivers almost 100% in phase, unlike most conventional ports.
     
  12. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    Wow! I didn't realize that.

    Sounds like their NL-410 should work better than two NL-210.

    I would guess the VL-210 would work better in a vertical stack since they are 3-way cabs.

    That's interesting and good to know.

    The Schroeder 410 coverage is pretty amazing as well.
     

  13. Didn't realize what? ;)

    I don't actually know if they've done it that way or not....
    The T-Line comment only applies to the range around the line tuning frequency.
     
  14. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    That.

    Thanks for the great info.

    Sounds like a good argument for TL & 3-way (or more) bass cabs if you want a vertical array that projects well.
     

  15. Ok cool!! :bassist:

    T-lines are neat but take a slew of work and knowledge to get them to function correctly. The NL-210 is a T-line design as well isn't it?
     
  16. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    Yes, but I think the x-over on both the NL cabs is higher than 600Hz.
     
  17. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    Found this post from JD.

    4th order crossover at 3kHz.
     

  18. Right, so if the 10s are both reproducing everything from LF cutoff to 3kHz. Everything between about 600Hz and 3k is subject to phase issues. No way around it, unless they've high passed one of the 10s @ about 600.

    I wonder if the crossover point is the same on the NM-410?
     
  19. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    I did a search & didn't find anything and the EA website doesn't state it in the specs.

    Same drivers involved: I'd bet on same freq. x-over.
     
  20. A9X

    A9X

    Dec 27, 2003
    Sinny, Oztraya
    Not really. Martin King's analysis and software makes it a lot easier and very predictable.
    At first glance the NL410 looks a bit small to actually fit in with this.

    Agree with your analysis regarding vertical stacking, driver size/type selection and the 4x10 and horn. This is why I don't like 4x10's and one of the reasons why HF drivers get a bad rep in bass rigs, ie crossed too high and (usually) the drivers/flares are cheap and an afterthought. Effective beamwidth of the driver needs to closely match that of the flare at the crossover point for them to integrate well.