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How many milliseconds out of time is reasonable aim?

sokolasty

sokolasty

Dec 11, 2006
434
507
Wroclaw, Poland
#1
I struggle to play in time. I miss-time one note each minute (give or take). It's around 30-40ms too soon or too late.
Here's my Polish smile video - and that's as good as it gets. I won't play closer to grid

Is this reasonable for a intermediate player I consider myself? Each teacher says "it's OK" but since I pay them they would tell me anything to keep me paying : )
 
#3
Zooberwerx said:
In jazz, that's either a "push" or a "pull" so you're good.

Riis
Click to expand...
If you're pushing or pulling as part of an intentional time feel that's one thing. If you're pushing or pulling because of a lack of control/inability to play with consistency that's another. The OP is clearly not pushing and pulling intentionally.
 
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#4
sokolasty said:
I struggle to play in time. I miss-time one note each minute (give or take). It's around 30-40ms too soon or too late.
Here's my Polish smile video - and that's as good as it gets. I won't play closer to grid

Is this reasonable for a intermediate player I consider myself? Each teacher says "it's OK" but since I pay them they would tell me anything to keep me paying : )
Click to expand...

Your timing is inconsistent, but to me it sounds like it's largely a matter of putting in more time on the bass. There are a couple of things going on here: there is the timing but there is also the matter of playing the chord changes. I would suggest separating the two. If you are working specifically on time then concentrate on that. Same for the chord changes. Mixing the two (at this point) is likely to distract you from the task at hand. So to work on your time choose a chord progression that you don't have to think much about. Better yet, don't play through a progression at all. Break it down as much as you need to in order to concentrate solely on your time. If that means playing a major scale in quarter notes then do that. If it means staying on one note then do that. Breaking things down this way will give you a better idea of exactly where the problem lies, and you'll be able to address that without simultaneously worrying about what the next chord is and how you should get to it.

One last thing: don't obsess too much over the visual grid. The grid can be good for giving you an overall idea of your tendencies but what "looks best" is not always what sounds best. Let your ears, not your eyes, be the final judge.
 
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#5
Zooberwerx said:
In jazz, that's either a "push" or a "pull" so you're good.

Riis
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but overall time and the desired effect of pushing and pulling depends on group consensus - the big problem here is that the group (backing track) isn't listening!! If you push the track drags you back and if you try to hold back the track just runs away from you.

I guess the question for @sokolasty is how does it hang when a live band is involved?

But for perspective, I think 40ms is a lot for a push or pull. I've done quite a bit of work on programming tempo changes into backing tracks to create a looser feel, and whilst this is far more art than science, 40ms over 1 beat amounts to +2.5 BPM at 60, and +7 BPM at 100. This is a huge change that will sound like a big stumble - typically I am working with fractions of a BPM, occasionally just over +/-1, to create audible and 'organic' ebb and flow in tempo/feel. A +1 BPM change from 100 to 101 is just under -6ms in beat duration.
 
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#8
SteveCS said:
Perhaps, but overall time and the desired effect of pushing and pulling depends on group consensus - the big problem here is that the group (backing track) isn't listening!! If you push the track drags you back and if you try to hold back the track just runs away from you.

I guess the question for @sokolasty is how does it hang when a live band is involved?

But for perspective, I think 40ms is a lot for a push or pull. I've done quite a bit of work on programming tempo changes into backing tracks to create a looser feel, and whilst this is far more art than science, 40ms over 1 beat amounts to +2.5 BPM at 60, and +7 BPM at 100. This is a huge change that will sound like a big stumble - typically I am working with fractions of a BPM, occasionally just over +/-1, to create audible and 'organic' ebb and flow in tempo/feel. A +1 BPM change from 100 to 101 is just under -6ms in beat duration.
Click to expand...
I was being overly-gracious but you're correct that the approach / concept has to be embraced by all. Nothing that a metronome and practice won't cure. 40 ms would be downright disruptive.

Riis
 
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#10
bass12 said:
If you're pushing or pulling as part of an intentional time feel that's one thing. If you're pushing or pulling because of a lack of control/inability to play with consistency that's another. The OP is clearly not pushing and pulling intentionally.
Click to expand...
This /\

Also I would note that in the first half minute, some of the drag might be caused by a lot of unnecessary one- and two-fret shifts to fret notes with your index finger. You could stay planted and use your other fingers to hit those notes rather than shifting. Overall, though, you are in the ballpark, and all I hear is the need for more practice. It will come. BTW, I love Autumn Leaves. One of my favorites!
 
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#11
It's a problem and it's easily heard.

Focus your hearing on one thing and one thing only: what the drummer is doing, especially the "1" and "3" beats. That should be your anchor. Ignore everything else in the mix. It takes concentration and discipline but it can be done.
 
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#12
It's a given: To play even semi-professionally, you AT LEAST have to be on time and in tune. Not negotiable if you ever want to work with better players, or any situation for that matter. You always want to work into a position that IF there's a problem on the bandstand, it isn't you.

I would practice relentlessly with either a metronome or a drum machine until you inboard a solid time feel. And/or work on any technique that's throwing you off, your hands can get overwhelmed and you fall behind.

Been there, done all of these.
 
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#13
A quick web search suggests 13-20 milliseconds is audible to humans as a non-simultaneous rhythmic delay.
Less than that is perceived as timbral rather than rhythmic ( like a tight delay effect)

But I never, ever think about how many milliseconds ahead/behind/offbeat I am.
Because context has an overwhelming impact on how the time should feel.
As well as the group's interpretation as @SteveCS points out.

To my ears, there's timing that is noticeably different, and timing that is not noticeably different.
For me that has always been a mostly intuitive and slightly fuzzy thing.
At pop / rock speeds (110 -160 bpm ) this generally keeps fidelity at around a 16th note subdivision, maybe a 32nd note.
More precise than that, l start considering it to be a feel adjustment (much as I hate vague musical terms)
I have never found considering milliseconds to be a musically useful thing.
 
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#15
eniac said:
It's a problem and it's easily heard.

Focus your hearing on one thing and one thing only: what the drummer is doing, especially the "1" and "3" beats. That should be your anchor. Ignore everything else in the mix. It takes concentration and discipline but it can be done.
Click to expand...
Why do you say focus on 1 and 3, as opposed to 2 and 4? Or all 4 beats?
 
#18
If playing loose is intentional, it's fine. If you're not able to control that, it's not fine. My teacher was very well-known, famous in the bass playing community, and he was a hardass when it came to time. Drills and drills, exercise after exercise, all designed to improve my ability to play in time. Exactly on the beat, slightly ahead, slightly behind, etc. If you want that skill and your teacher isn't giving you specific tools to develop that skill, then you have outgrown that teacher and it's time to find a different one. You can absolutely develop that skill with the right tools and exercises. Check out some of Rich Brown - The Brownstone's videos on YouTube (no affiliation), he's got some great exercises to get started.
 
#20
sokolasty said:
Is this reasonable for a intermediate player I consider myself?
Click to expand...
Just listened. yes it's reasonable, it's fine. I only heard maybe 2 places where it really felt like a missed beat, and not an arguable interpretation.
There are a few places where the dynamics are interrupted ( suddenly a note is staccato ) probably due to a shift in position, which could be scrutinized and smoothed over.

Also you start off playing a 2 feel over a backing track that is a 4 feel. What's the difference?
 
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