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how to achieve hifi woof?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by lexington125, Nov 4, 2013.


  1. lexington125

    lexington125

    Sep 11, 2013
    hollywood, baby......
    someday I will find 4 or 5 other guys who want to play the blues the way it was played before it became all about guitar heroics
    I’m probably setting myself up for a smackdown, but so be it………..

    As a 54 year old bass player, I don’t have a lot of experience w/ twelves, but after a lifetime of experience with fifteens, I have been convinced to try a pair of 1-12 cabs for my next rig and believe that it will offer me the flexibility and sound that I am after.

    The problems start when I try to describe the sound I am after; think reggae/dub only I don’t play that style of music. I play a lot of post war blues and early / mid sixties R&B with no high end coming from the bass. Similar to the way the Beatles made their records, I work hard with my guitar players to open up my own slice of the frequency range, so I can be easily heard in the mix without resorting to adding mids/highs to cut through. To make it completely clear, I use a 64 P-bass and an old Ampeg portaflex for all recording, and I have the tone control on the P-bass completely off and the treble on the Ampeg at around 10 o’clock. (using ten year old strings)

    The reason I am willing to put in the effort and money to purchase a very good quality bass rig for live use is because I understand that it is not easy to reproduce this kind of “all woof” bass tone with enough clarity to hear the notes I am playing . Getting this type of tone in the studio is comparatively easy (as long as the guitar players don’t insist on low end guitar sounds – fortunately that seems to be a quirk of modern / young guitarists) But it can be a challenge live, especially when the soundman thinks he is doing us a favor by creating a “thunder of the gods” drum sound. But assuming the sound guy ‘gets it’ its up to me to produce a deep, articulate woof.

    A handful of the new, engineered cabinet designs from Barefaced, Greenboy and BFM can be ordered with NO tweeter or midrange, and they seem like they were designed with someone like me in mind, only perhaps someone not quite as extreme. But it is that last 10% or so that has kept me from purchasing one of these cabs. (of course, the fact that all three of these companies are very small, with no opportunity to try out the cabinets prior to purchase, only complicates matters)

    Ths single cabinet that seems to come closest to the sound I am after is the Barefaced Dubster (based solely on written description – no opportunity to actually try one). But I would need to achieve that sound with two 1-12s instead of the Dubster’s 2-15 cab.

    I fully understand the statement by various “authorized builders” that they will not modify the Greenboy designs (and similar warnings from Mr. BFM to not deviate from his plans.) And Barefaced is too busy to develop a “half-dubster” that only I am interested in.

    A pair of BFM Jack 12s would be one option, but the spike at 2.5kHz on the recommended 2512 (and to a lesser extent, the 3012HO) is just what I am trying to avoid. Is it possible to modify the Jack 12 design to allow the use of the 3012lf?

    Greenboy offers one model that could work without modification, the 12 Sub, but as it is intended for PA sub use, the cabinet is very deep. As I don’t need ANY response below 40hz, I was hoping a 3012lf equipped Bassic 12 might work and be a lot easier to drag around town; especially a pair of them.

    If I could successfully configure a pair of 1-12 cabinets from any one of these three companies based on the Eminence Kappa Lite 3012LF with no mid or high end drivers, I could finally place my order and get back to the music. Any suggestions?
     
  2. jasper383

    jasper383

    Dec 5, 2004
    Durham NC
    Acme Flatwound fits your needs exactly. A couple of those, and you'll be on your way.
     
  3. Any particular reason you're married to the 2X 112 cabs format? These days speaker diameter has little to do with the sound you'll get. It's all about matching the cab to the speaker.
    Having said that, one of the Greenboy or fEarful designs will probably do what you're looking for.
     
  4. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    The Jacks horn action is in the mids, so it's very low bass will sound a bit subdued by comparison. The horn also starts to lose it's effect by the time you get to the deltalites upper peak, so that peak won't sound as pronounced as it looks either.

    The kappalite LF has a pretty bad peak around 1200-1500 or so. You'd have to do something about that if running one with no mid. Using dead strings with the tone knob off might help that.

    Acme flatwound woukd be a good choice.

    May also want to look into somebody doing you a custom build around a pair of Delta12LF's or Basslite s2012's.
     
  5. The 12sub is not a PA sub cab, it is a part of a full range system, but is not intended as a stand alone cab. In fact no 3012LF cab is meant to be a stand alone cab, there needs to be some sort of mid driver. You may not think you need content up there, but I doubt you have ever really heard your signal chain with nothing above 800hz included. The Bassic 12 is a great cab, and kind of old school, but it is not huge down low or intended to work around the 3012LF.

    I suggest you contact ::Bassist:: about his tonal goals, which are very close to yours. He will tell you that his 12/6 + 12sub
    rig is the bee's knees.
     
  6. blowinblue

    blowinblue Blue in name only. Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2006
    SoCal USA
    It must be a real drag getting old. LOL. Your post reminds me of my old TB sig line..."Bass should be more about woofin'...less about tweetin'." Your tone goals seem to be in the same universe as mine. Don't let anyone knock you off course. :)

    M. M.
     
  7. Foz

    Foz

    Jul 26, 2008
    Jax FL USA
    Naaa a 12sub couldn't work for your needs.... it aint a stand alone bass cab [its not a PA cab either FWIW].

    The Bassic 12 does not use the "3012lf" - but that's OK - given you stated goals you don't want a "LF" from that line anyway as it trades off ability in the low lows for the requirement of adding a mid driver. The Bassic 12 is loaded with either a FaitalPro 12PR300 or Eminence 3012HO.

    5151323_orig.

    http://www.barryaudiodesign.com/dually-and-bassic-12-and-15.html

    I think the Bassic and Dually lines are worth a listen for you given your stated goals - hell check out a 12/6 if you get a chance, you might be surprised how mellow they can be if that's what you want em to do. Look at the user map and maybe put out out a request for demo opportunities at:

    http://greenboy.us/forum/index.php
     
  8. lexington125

    lexington125

    Sep 11, 2013
    hollywood, baby......
    someday I will find 4 or 5 other guys who want to play the blues the way it was played before it became all about guitar heroics
    based on my original post, there is no way for you to have known this, but i plan on driving these cabs with a mid power (60 to 120 watt +/-) tube amp. The Acme cabs are interesting but about 10db less efficient than most of the designs i have been considering. A couple of dB either way, no biggie; 10dB, probably not the right choice, for me.
     
  9. lexington125

    lexington125

    Sep 11, 2013
    hollywood, baby......
    someday I will find 4 or 5 other guys who want to play the blues the way it was played before it became all about guitar heroics
    Haven't had a chance to listen to all 3 under controlled conditions, but according to their data sheets, the 3012HO has at least as large a spike, only at 2.5kHz, instead of the lower frequency bump for the LF model. And the 2512's spike at 2.5kHz makes the two 3012 variations look dead flat by comparison. In other words, based on their charts alone, the LF model was not the one with the peaky response.
     
  10. lexington125

    lexington125

    Sep 11, 2013
    hollywood, baby......
    someday I will find 4 or 5 other guys who want to play the blues the way it was played before it became all about guitar heroics
    Curious about your selection of 800hz, the 3012lf doesn't even start to taper off until 1.5kHz, and the real drop off doesn't hit until over 3kHz. That sure seems like a lot higher than I'll need. (according to the Eminence supplied performance charts)
     
  11. lexington125

    lexington125

    Sep 11, 2013
    hollywood, baby......
    someday I will find 4 or 5 other guys who want to play the blues the way it was played before it became all about guitar heroics
    Has anyone found a 1-12 cab that was designed around the 3012lf ???
     
  12. lexington125

    lexington125

    Sep 11, 2013
    hollywood, baby......
    someday I will find 4 or 5 other guys who want to play the blues the way it was played before it became all about guitar heroics

    thanks for the suggestions !
     
  13. Modern 12's with high excursion are equivalent to our old 15's in ability to woof. Response spikes can be shut down with EQ. Grab an EQ pedal for your old amp and win.
     
  14. That's for the dispersion. Handing off to the 6" at 800 gives no beaming of 1k.
     
  15. Foz

    Foz

    Jul 26, 2008
    Jax FL USA
    The spike at 1k in a LF [followed by a steep drop off of all higher frequencies] is a very different proposition to a bass player than the gently rising response of the 3012ho above 1k extending out to 4k. Few would find the LF useful in a single driver bass cab.

    The 800 Hz mentioned as to the 12sub is the low pass crossover frequency of that cab - not inherent to the driver.
     
  16. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I don't know when you were last in touch with us but maybe you haven't seen the new Generation Three models? The new Super Twin (2x12") or Super Compact (1x12") look like exactly what you need!
     
  17. grey area

    grey area

    Sep 2, 2009
    almeria spain
    my tone is that 60s beatles tone and i have no problem getting there with many different amp/ cab configs. at present i use a GK MBF 500 through two TC RS 2x12s, tone rolled back, very old flats and play near the neck, tweeter off. and well trained guitarists,( i still have to contend with a loud drummer though). i started playing during the 60s and have stuck with that tone all along, even through the punk and new wave times. i now play 60s covers so i am back in my comfort zone. i think 90% of your tone comes from your fingers. try a bunch if cabs with your bass and i am sure you will find your tone without too many problems. i have heard that the fearless/ fearfull/ greenboy fellas have a network all over the states and are more than willing to let you try their cabs out. try some of those, make new friends, what could be better.
    good luck.
     
  18. Yes. The fEARful 12sub. It is not a stand alone cab, as the 3012LF is not a stand alone driver.
     
  19. chadds

    chadds

    Mar 18, 2000
    I lived and loved then and now. Realize that unless the room you are in is "perfect" and every room you gig in is the same you may need some treble component in your sound to frame or give definition to your notes.

    While your quest is a fun exercise some gear right in front of you with a tweeter that may even be SS may sound exactly like you want it to.

    Just saying don't have ideas guide you to determine components when, like speaker size myths, our ideas can be in great error. I've spent some coin doing this! Let sound be your guide.
     
    Mystic Michael likes this.
  20. bassmachine2112

    bassmachine2112

    Mar 23, 2008
    What about a bit of foam under the strings at the bridge? and/or an equaliser pedal and what ever speaker/amp combination.Sounds like a clash with the kick drum.
    Tried a P.bass with the tone right back ?
    12"s are good by the way but 10"s are easier to get a hold of,I use 12"s now.
     

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