Hum Help...

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by iriegnome, Dec 18, 2014.

  1. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    So here is what I have.. It is not a bass amp, but the theory and application is exactly the same and hey, it is a PreSWR Groove tube preamp..
    Here is my rack -
    Rane PE-15
    Groove Tube Trio
    Mesa Boogie 50/50 (running 6L6's)

    Here is the problem. When everything is racked up, there is a terrible buzz. Sounds like a 60cycle hum or sorts. Ground lifted everything. Seperately, all at the same time, different power sources, nothing different. Disconnect the Rane and the hum goes away.. Pull the Rane out of the rack still all hooked up and the buzz goes away.
    Tested the Rane in my Bass rig and no problems at all.
    Each of the pieces has a ground lift on them as well and those did not make a difference either.

    Anyone with anything to add? I just bought the PE-15 from a fellow TB'er and it is in great condition.
    What I don't understand is why the hum only occurrs when the whole this is racked up.
    Oh, I have tried a second PE-15 (the version with the removable power supply) and we get the same buzz.

    HELP
     
  2. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
    Look closely at Rane's notes on input and output cabling. It's a TRS balanced device.
     
  3. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    Yes it is TRS. All in/out's on the Groove Tube, Mesa and Rane are TRS
     
  4. Scottkarch

    Scottkarch

    Sep 11, 2012
    Chicago
    Since it only works when racked, I wonder if you're getting some sort of inductance..... maybe a powerful transformer or noisy power supply inducing a 60Hz hum in an adjoining rack space. Can you reorder them in the rack? As an odd test, any way you can flip one of them upside down.. or backwards, to do a Left/Right switch of it's electronics and see if the hum stops? I wonder if a grounded thin copper sheet between devices would stop or reduce any RF from an adjoining device.
     
  5. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    On further findings, the Mesa is not TRS, but just TS. Have not found out exactly about the GT yet. We have switched spots in order to see if it is just a transformer hum between units, but it did not make any difference.
     
  6. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    Next thing. There is a small ground screw included on the Rane EQ's. It is for chasis grounding to the rack.. Interesting, I would like to know why this is like that. They must know there are problems with ground issues. So, I have read in the PE-15 manual that a small wire connected from that ground to a chasis screw may help as well.
     
  7. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
    So, now that you know that the Rane is TRS and the Mesa is TS, it's time to re-read the rane notes (IIRC it's notes #110) with regard to connecting TRS to TS devices.

    For a troubleshooting process, try just the power amp in the rack, nothing plugged into it except speakers. Is it quiet?

    Now with the Rane unit out of the rack, but with the ground lift connected (not lifted), connect the PEQ as recommended by Rane. Is it still quiet?

    If so, now move it into the rack but not touching any of the metal in the rack. Is it quiet? If not, it's likely that the power transformer in the amp is inducing noise into the PEQ, which could be indicating an issue with the INTERNAL grounding of the PEQ, or the circuitry can not reject the external electromagnetic field from the amp.

    If it's quiet, screw the PEQ into the rack rail, if it's quiet, great. If not, it's lileky that there is a chassis ground loop that's at fault. Does the amp still have it's ground pin on the power cord?

    This is the general process for identifying the cause of the problem, once you can identify the cause, you are in a better place for finding a solution.
     
  8. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    Ok. all ready did the plugged in without the Rane. Good and quiet. We know it is not the amp or the pre...
    Plugged the Rane in without putting it into the rack and it's quiet. Screwed the Rane into the rack and BUZZ!!!
    Lifted and unlifted all the lifts on each of the pieces (none made a difference).. Did not try to put the Rane into the rack without screwing it down. Maybe a towel inbetween the units just for some non-touching something between them. I will give that a try.
    The PEQ does have that small ground screw just above the power cord. This has got to be the reason for it. It just is seeming that they knew these things buzzed from chassis noise so they added this tiny little ground screw for exactly this purpose. I will hopefully be able to check this out tonight or tomorrow.
     
  9. BassmanPaul

    BassmanPaul Inactive

    Did you try stacking the units outside the rack?? Often the power supply of one unit can induce hum into another unit that is in close proximity. It's like the hum you get if you stand too close to your amp. If the stack does not produce hum then you are likely getting a ground loop through the rack rails. In this case I use some small plastic insulators call "Humfrees". I bolt the power amp right to the rack and insulate all the other units. I never have problems with hum in any of my racks.

    Edit: If the hum IS induced try changing the order of the individual units to find the quietest arrangement.
     
  10. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
    Critical piece of information is if it makes noise not screwed in and not touching any other metal, start without anything else to eliminate other possible fault causes.
     
  11. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    No, it is quiet hooked in line, but not in the rack.
     
  12. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
    Fine, but you need to undestand what I wrote... you are missing the important details here.

    If when putting the amp with PEQ into the rack, with the amp screwed into the rack rails BUT THE PEQ IN THE RACK NOT TOUCHING ANY OF THE METAL, this eliminates the possibility of a ground loop causing the primary problem (there could be an additional problem but you won't know without following this) and points to inductive coupling of the amp's power supply into the PEQ. If it's quiet, but gets noisy when connected to the rack rail, that eliminates the possibility of inductive coupling between the two devices.

    I am asking you to do this in a very specific order as I am extremely familiar with both pieces and have spent over 30 years troubleshooting this kind of problem in the field when handling touring pro audiio support.
     
  13. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    Sorry. Did not mean to come off wrong with my response. I guess I didn't understand what you had asked of me. I will go through it step by step. I did not have a chance yet to try a towel or something to have them not touch. I will do that as soon as I can and see if that does anything..
     
  14. iriegnome

    iriegnome Bassstar style Supporting Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Kenosha, WI 53140
    ok. back with you. the system buzzes even out of the rack all together. In the rack not touching any metal, it buzzes. Separately no buzz at all. My PEQ is one of the earlier models with the built in transformer and no extra ground screw above the cord.