i dont know...just read it

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by heath_the_great, Sep 18, 2004.

  1. well, now im a dual cab user :D im using an ashton 15" and a classic bass 4x10 with horn..

    ashton = 8ohm 250w
    classic bass = 8ohm 300w

    and im running them both with my peavey mark 3, which is 4ohm 150w...does this mean each cab is ony getting 75w each or are they getting the full 150w each.....and also woul it be a kinda smart idea to upgrade my head to something like a behringer head which is 300w at 4ohm....or should i try and get a head that is the total of those 2 wattages
  2. inazone


    Apr 20, 2003
    yup, 75 watts each. I would try to get a head with at least 400 watts if not more. With that said, if its loud enough for you now and you dont have any distortion, clipping and sounds good, dont worry about it.
  3. rotorheadcase


    Apr 20, 2004
    If you're playing modern rock at any venue above about 100 people then you're going to need more oomph out of your head otherwise you're just going to get lost in the mix or seriously clip your cabinets.

    I have the Hartke 350w head and wish I had the 500w version. I have a 4 X 10 and a 2 X 10 cab which in a power trio only just makes the grade with the current head.

    My best advice is to look at 400-500w into 4ohms to make the most out of the cabs. That way you're getting a nice clean sound with heaps of headroom.
  4. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    Back again, eh? :cool:

    Each one of those tens is seeing less than 20 watts, the fifteen is seeing 75 watts, if you're actually putting full power into them. You should at least consider doubling the power handling capacity of the system. 1000 watts would be entirely reasonable, assuming you're playing out in a situation that makes it so.

    The big question, though, is: how's it sound at the moment?
  5. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Even doubling wattage is not worth the effort. Watts mean nothing, decibels mean everything, and doubling your wattage only gets you a 3dB level increase. It takes a 10dB level increase to sound 'twice as loud', and getting a 10dB level increase requires a power increase of a factor of ten. If you have an amp that's not up to the job the minimum wattage increase you should consider is by a factor of four.
  6. Danm


    Sep 24, 2003
    Canberra Australia
    Hiya Heath,

    How do you like the Classic 4x10???? I was looking into them myself a while ago....

    Yeah bud, A Mark III probably won't be pushing them too much at all... The Behringer might be the go, would be louder anyhoo....

    Depending on your budget tho, If you had a grand to sink into a head... I'd suggest trying one of those Ebony heads that Petebass uses or the Pro-Audio one like mine ( they're both pretty much the same amp.. A very Conservative 400w into 4 ohms.. When I run 2 boxes with mine it's hella loud ( nice tone too )...

    I'm going to Sydney tomorrow on business but am going to be stopping at the Bassplayer in Annandale beforehand, I'll have a look & see if they have any Ebony heads there & letcha know.. They often have some decent used stuff there too.. I'm going up to try a slightly used Sunn 300-T (300w all tooob baby! )..

    Lemme know if those classic quads are anygood... You never know the Behringer cabs are going to be available here in a few weeks ( ducks for cover )...

    :hyper: :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:
  7. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    Ermmm...Bill? Did you notice that I recommended an increase from 150 watts to 1000? :eyebrow:
  8. Yeah, just ignore the power ratings on the cabs, the manufacturers obviously doesn't know what they're talking about when they put power ratings on there. :eyebrow:

    Heck, why not drive them with 2000 watts, or 20,000? The name of the game is headroom, right? :rolleyes:

    Some people are very aware of their power levels and can get away with putting 1000 watts into speakers rated a total of 550. But there is a very real risk of overpowering the cabs.

    Go to the JBL web site, and read their technical notes section. They have a Speaker FAQ document which is very enlightening. The ONLY time JBL recommends using an amp bigger than the speaker rating is for studio monitoring in a controlled environment. For sound reinforcement, they recommend an amp equal to the speaker rating. For musical instruments where there can be heavy clipping, they recommend an amp HALF the speaker rating.

    I hate to start a flame war here, but....

    If you want to risk your own cabs, go for it. But what's good for you may be very risky for somebody who may not have enough experience to realize they're pushing their speakers too hard.
  9. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    In my experience and opinion, there should never be heavy power amp clipping on a bass signal, unless one intentionally wants it. Whatever it takes to avoid that is a good thing, in my experience. Headroom is one possible way, no? As someone who previously blew dozens of drivers by using your rationale, and zero in the last fifteen years using mine (which many, many people agree with), I'll stand by my recommendation. Again: 1000 watts would be entirely reasonable, assuming you're playing out in a situation that makes it so. A situation involving heavy power amplifier clipping wouldn't fall into this category, to my mind. I'll grant that some folks DO like the sound of clipped bass, and they will likely blow speakers even more often with larger amounts of power.

    I didn't just pull that number up arbitrarily though, I believe it reflects the measured crest factors of basses played by real humans, vis a vis that of the signal used to test loudspeakers to the IEC power handling standard.

    I just cited the JBL website article you're referring to in another thread a day or two ago. There's a lot more there that you're not factoring in, perhaps. Many modern bass players fit the paradigm of "careful monitoring", in my experience. No flames here, I'm all for further discussion of this topic. :cool:
  10. the classsic cabs are awesome....mines got the selenium speakers in it....absolutely awesome, id put it up against a SWR goliath 3 anyday.....hey, they're both aussie made cabs, so the makers know :smug: :bag: ...but yeah, i owe my guitarist $500 for the cab so an upgrade wont be too soon, its sounds awesome at the moment, going up against a fender twin and a electronic drum kit going through a 300w p.a, i only have to have it on 4...but if i had a grand to go into a head id buy a hartke ha5500...ill probably buy a behringer after i pay for the cab,.....

    what proaudio head you got, the 400w rackmount?
    when ya go to bass player can you see if they have a peavey mark 4 for me? i love the peavey mark series.id love a mark vii
  11. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    As someone who has never, ever blown a speaker using JBL and Nashvilebill's rationale, I think that sending a speaker double it's rated watts requires more self control and knowledge of limits that most beginner/intermediate bassists are capable of. Therefore we shouldn't be touting this advice to them. Just my opinion.

    The reason clipping is dangerous is because an amp can put out more than it's rated power when it clips. At 100% clipping, (ie sounds like totally crap so ou'de never clip 100% in real life), it's capable of putting out twice it's rated power. In this case, Heath's head is capable of 300 of horribly distorted output (don't try this guys, the amp is likely to overheat). If your speakers can't handle a 300w burst, that's when speakers blow.

    Heath, your speakers can handle a 300w burst, and you current 150w arangement seems to be doing the job in terms of volume and tone. Therefore, stop putting so much emphasis on spec sheets, stop listening with your eyes and start learning to trust your ears.
  12. but i want something that looks good :bawl:

    :D but seriously im just concerned about when we start giggin soon that its gonna be enough and that ive got enough clean tone
  13. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    That's cool, we're all here to share our various experiences. Many manufacturers disagree with JBL, for instance: http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=6&p2=17&p_id=88

    Quote: For most applications, a good rule of thumb when deciding what amplifier works best with your particular speaker combination is to compare the amplifier’s Continuous Average Power to your speaker’s Program Power rating at the speaker’s total impedance.

    Since program power ratings are very often double the RMS rating, it's easy to see why many peole recommenf and/or use an amp rated at double the RMS valuse of the speaker.

    I've repaired many, many combo amps the used JBLs recommendation, and had speaker failures. Downrating by itself does not ensure survival of the speaker under abusive conditions, again this is in my experience. Also that of a great many Fender Twin Reverb owners, for example.

    One thing bugs me though about your statement: I think that sending a speaker double it's rated watts requires more self control and knowledge of limits that most beginner/intermediate bassists are capable of.

    Who said anything about sending the speaker double its rated watts long term? A 1000 watt amp reproducing typical program material, will be sending considerably less than half of that 1000 watts continuous power to the speaker. I'm not sure I could find a way to do it that wouldn't sound obviously terrible. Even more so if a limiter is engaged, as it probably should be.

    In any case, I've repaired an awful lot of gear that died from using it underpowered, and asking too much of it; far more than I've seen die from "overspec'ing" amplifier power. YMMV, and apparently does. But I'll happily qualify my statements more carefully on TB, thanks for the reality check.
  14. Arthur U. Poon

    Arthur U. Poon

    Jan 30, 2004
    SLC, Utah -USA-
    Endorsing Artist: Mike Lull Custom Basses
    Hard to say, but I agree with the previous posts that suggest you invest in an amp that's rated between 400 to 500 watts RMS @ 4 Ohms when you have the available funds. IMO/IME the only way you'll really be able to tell is once you start gigging. There's too many factors when going from the rehearsal room to gig venues. I think you should be fine, especially that your drummer uses an electronic set. Your guitarist could smoke my 700 watts with his Twin, this I know from constant experience :crying: .

    But if he's cool enough to lend you the cash for your cab, I bet he's civilized enough to not dime his master :) .

    I used a Peavey MKIV head and 2-15" BW cab in the early 80's that did a fantastic job. I believe it was rated at 210 watts RMS @ 4 Ohms.

    Congrats on your new 4-10" :cool:

  15. I got a chance to trial the Classic series vs. Goliath 3 cab back when venue music still carried the SWR line up.

    The Goliath was twice the price of the classic.. so i A/B'd two classic cabs against one goliath 3... the classic(s) were no contest, but thats only IMO

    I kinda wish i bought the Goliath cab.. but i guess the ones i trialled didnt have 'selenium' speakers in them... :eyebrow:
  16. Danm


    Sep 24, 2003
    Canberra Australia
    Well Heath, they did have some old Peavy gear in there today... Didn't take too much notice tho as I was too busy salivating over my ( hopefully ) new rig... Sunn 300T with Eden 210XLT & 410XLT... I'm in tooob heaven :bassist: :bassist: :bassist:

    My current amp is basically the rackmount head in a combo with 2x12's and a tweeter... Great amp ( especially with a second box )....

    Anyhoo, my boss just called.. gotta go

  17. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Sure, but realistically who's going to actually go for that much? Anyway, the difference between 600 and 1kW is about 2dB, so it's rather moot. Personally I run with a Hartke 3500 that I've never had to turn up past '3', which measures out to about 20 watts average program, because my speakers run with 106dB sensitivity and they don't crap out below 100 Hz like commercial tinker toys do.
  18. yeah, my classic was made on custom order a year ago, down in melbourne, i beleive that they only got a small shipment of the speakers and cant get them any more..apparently..but i find them to be awesome, goes well with the ashton 15", but a better 15" will be on the cards eventually....

    im a solid state man myself, i dont really like tube amps, id use a tube overdrive pedal but thats about it,i wouldnt mind checking out the pro audio rackmount head, but in my price frame im thinking about checking out the behringer head, or possibly buying a behringer power amp and using my peavey as a preamp, but is it thesable to use the head as a preamp without powering a cabinet? without blowing up my head/
  19. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    Welcome to Talkbass, Bill. You'll find that a great many of us here routinely use power amps in configurations allowing well over 1000 watts. As far as what we actually run for program power, whatever it takes. I'm a big fan of high sensitivity speaker systems, and look forward to hearing your designs. Anywhere in the Pacific Northwest I can hear them, without having to build them myself?