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I just had an eye opening thought.

Discussion in 'Basses [BG]' started by Navybass, Sep 29, 2008.


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  1. KeithPas

    KeithPas Supporting Member

    May 16, 2000
    Poulsbo,Wa

    I understand the OP and do not take issue with it but I love this quote. Many American workers have much to be unhappy about but doing ones work with love and pride should be first and foremost once the clock is punched.
     
  2. DanielleMuscato

    DanielleMuscato

    Jun 19, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri, USA
    Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
    I thought babies were love made visible :smug:

    In all seriousness, I have not read this whole thread, but I find the OP's first post absurd on one end of the spectrum and insulting on the other. First of all, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of distinct cultures in "The Orient," and pride in one's work is a personal value, not necessarily a cultural one. I think there's quite a bit of romanticism and some "reverse prejudice" going on here. We all hear about Italian craftsmanship—the best violins come from Italy—or Spanish craftsmanship, when it comes to classical guitars... But the truth is, it's not at all that simple in today's global economy, especially for mass-produced instruments like Made-in-Japan Fenders, etc.

    For the most part, people choose work based on a combination of what appeals to them and what pays a decent wage. People working in the manufacturing of mid-level instruments may or may not care about turning out the best musical instrument for the money, and this is the same regardless of whether they live in the Orient or the Occident. They may not even play guitar or know anything about guitars beyond what's needed for their part of the conveyor belt, same as here.

    Are you going to say next that Mexican Fenders aren't as good as Japanese Fenders because Mexicans are lazy? Note: If this sentence insults you, remember that it is no more a sweeping generalization of cultural values than the original poster's initial generalization.
     
  3. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
    pretty much sums up my feelings on the topic.
     
  4. Navybass

    Navybass

    Mar 12, 2005
    Norfolk, Va.
    I didn't mean it as prejudicial or stereotypical. I've been to Japan and have seen how they work, and have been in the American job market and seen how they work.

    Some of you are NOT seeing all my words here and are looking into this deeper than was intended.

    Like I said before, I never said "all" in any one of my statements.

    That's another problem these days, people can't say ANYTHING without someone thinking it was prejudicial or racial.

    Also, I never said anyone was lazy, so that lazy statement was much more absurd than anything I posted.
     
  5. Navybass

    Navybass

    Mar 12, 2005
    Norfolk, Va.
    Also, Mexican Fenders are the way they are because they were designed to be that way, not because of the people who make them.
     
  6. Navybass

    Navybass

    Mar 12, 2005
    Norfolk, Va.
    So a CIJ Fender isn't equal to an American Fender as far as quality and craftsmanship? I think they are, and the CIJ one is less expensive, that would make it better in my book. Same quality, cheaper price.
     
  7. DanielleMuscato

    DanielleMuscato

    Jun 19, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri, USA
    Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
    I'm glad I misunderstood you, Navy, and I didn't mean to imply that you said anyone was lazy. I was just saying, saying MIM Fenders reflect the cultural values of Mexico is akin to saying that Japanese Fenders reflect the cultural values of Japan. Or, more accurately, Mexican Fenders reflect the cultural values of Latin America, to be equally broad :smug:

    I just think it's silly to say that the reason American-made instruments are not as good as Asian-made ones is that most Americans look forward to sports on the weekend. Baseball is very popular in Japan, too :)

    How much someone puts into his job is rarely/not a cultural value as much as a personal one, and depends a lot on his passion for the field (how many people are truly passionate about manufacturing? LOL), the unemployment rate and health of the local economy, how much he is paid, whether or not he is a musician (if we're talking about the manufacture of musical instruments), and even then, if he plays the same instrument he manufactures, etc... None of these are really classifiable as cultural values... Sounds like a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter to me.
     
  8. Phalex

    Phalex Semper Gumby Supporting Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    G.R. MI
    I am Dave. I am.

    Now that I'm an office drone, I really miss the days when I would produce one perfect machine at a time. :bawl:
     
  9. GlennW

    GlennW

    Sep 6, 2006
    And who made this discovery, an American?

    The American work ethic went down the tubes years ago.
     
  10. Navybass

    Navybass

    Mar 12, 2005
    Norfolk, Va.
    I'll by what Dave Muscato is saying, but that raises the question that led me to post this, which is;

    Why do some people say that basses made overseas are better than ones made in USA?

    If the US Fenders are meant to be the "top of the line", CIJ is next, then MIM, then Squire, why do CIJ ones seem to be of equal quality to MIA ones?
     
  11. DanielleMuscato

    DanielleMuscato

    Jun 19, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri, USA
    Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
    Economically speaking, Americans (that is, US workers—there are what, 35 countries in America?) are the most productive. I could explain why but that would require getting out my old macro-economics textbook and I'm lazy :bassist:

    In all seriousness, try googling "GDP" or "productivity by country" and I'm sure you'll find something. It has to do with economic output per worker per hour.
     
  12. GlennW

    GlennW

    Sep 6, 2006
    I guess we should thank the Mexicans for getting our numbers up.
     
  13. Navybass

    Navybass

    Mar 12, 2005
    Norfolk, Va.

    I will say that I am just talking about USA and from what I remember from geography class the USA is it's own country.:D

    I should have said USA instead of America, sorry.
     
  14. Navybass

    Navybass

    Mar 12, 2005
    Norfolk, Va.

    Now, I would have NEVER gone there.
     
  15. DanielleMuscato

    DanielleMuscato

    Jun 19, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri, USA
    Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
    Lots of reasons... Minimum wage is one reason. Tariffs and quotas are others. Cost of materials, technological innovations, and corporate tax code are still others. Bottom line, it costs less to build an instrument in much of Asia than it does to build the same one here in the USA. This is true of most consumer products, which is why we see so much manufacturing moving offshore these days.

    Quality is not linked to geography; it is linked to cost and design. Lower inputs (like labor and gasoline) = lower cost of production = lower prices for equal quality (or better quality for the same price, however you want to look at it). When manufacturing offshore, you also have to take import taxes and the increased shipping costs into account, which don't apply to domestically produced goods. In many/most cases, though, it's still cheaper than building here.

    The US tax code and Dept. of Labor have pretty much decided this for us. If we raised import taxes and got rid of the minimum wage, more companies would choose to manufacture here. It just depends on what we value as a country, lower prices on consumer goods (e.g. all the stuff from Wal-Mart that's Made in China) or GDP.
     
  16. Gopherbassist

    Gopherbassist

    Jan 19, 2008
    Sorry, that's a generalization I can't accept. Please give evidence.
     
  17. DanielleMuscato

    DanielleMuscato

    Jun 19, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri, USA
    Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
    I should actually point out that Luxembourg has the highest GDP of all the countries in the world, but that's mostly because their population is only 480k.

    The USA has a population of 301m+, so our ~$75k/person is a bit more impression than their ~$90k/person, if you ask me :)
     
  18. DanielleMuscato

    DanielleMuscato

    Jun 19, 2004
    Columbia, Missouri, USA
    Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
    It's okay, Gopher, because Americans will eat themselves into obesity, even though they can't locate Africa on a world map :p
     
  19. Jazz Ad

    Jazz Ad Mi la ré sol Supporting Member

    I know first hand that there are a lot of Japanese slouches. Not more or less than in any other part of the World I think.
     
  20. Seems to me like people are only focusing on the good brands. The "rok axe" I played a while back was just horrible, the neck felt like it was made of housing-grade plywood. There's plenty more like it out there. I imagine that without Cort and a couple others the image of foreign instrument would be much different. Granted, without Fender, Gibson, Peavey, and some others the image of American instruments would be much different as well...
     

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