Ideas for full-band PA in tiny low-volume venues

[nutdog]

I've got a couple of Bose L1 model II's but for a nursing home one k10 works. It's hard to beat the qsc mixers for portablilty and ease of use. The towers are great but overkill.

I also play with a couple of acoustic guitars and we all 3 sing. We go into small places and they each bring a fishman loudbox for mic/instrument and I use an acoustic image coda 2R for vocal and instrument. Extremely easy setup. Everybody is responsible for their own sound.

For the last year I've been playing with a group called Ginny and the Tonics. We have 4 vocals and different influences so we're doing stuff from Etta James and Bill Haley to Deep Purple, Waylon and Willie, Oasis, Kings of Leon, Brad Paisley and Colbie Caillat.

Yesterday we played at a local retirement community so it was mostly oldies. They had us at the end of the main entrance hall with most of the folks seated in the dining area to our left. Knowing they wouldn't want loud volume we ran the whole band through one k10 on a stand, 4 vocal mics, bass directly into the mixer, electric guitar had a fly rig. Brushes on the drums and the acoustic guitar was already plugged into his fishman mini so he used that.


Ginny's a trooper. Singing for two now and ready to pop.

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I love to see the young heart overcome the old body.

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The staff got in on the fun. Lately I've noticed young people seem to enjoy the 50's rock and roll.

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Some leftover dessert for the road.

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Arrived at 5:10, finished setup at 5:25, sound check done by 5:40. Start at 6, finish at 7, in my car driving away at 7:20. Same pay as a typical 4 hour late night bar gig. I'm thinking about only playing retirement homes from here on out.

 

[boxerrider]

While I have not put hands on one, the EV 50 sub looks like it has a recessed handle on each side. I agree that it's a lot easier to hoist a cabinet into the back of a pickup that way than a single handle on top. It also allows one person to lift on one side and another person to lift on the other, making it even easier.
If you are interested in something similar with less weight. EV has a passive 12" sub, SB122, that's about 33 pounds. It will mean you have to carry an amp too, so you'll still have the weight, but it will be in more than one piece. You could pole mount one of the EV 8" mains on it and have a nice sounding and easy to load setup.
@jbybj has a thread about testing a pair of the SB122 subs along with QSC mains - https://www.talkbass.com/threads/my-subwoofer-chain-putting-together-a-small-pa.1658514/

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

While I have not put hands on one, the EV 50 sub looks like it has a recessed handle on each side. I agree that it's a lot easier to hoist a cabinet into the back of a pickup that way than a single handle on top. It also allows one person to lift on one side and another person to lift on the other, making it even easier.
If you are interested in something similar with less weight. EV has a passive 12" sub, SB122, that's about 33 pounds. It will mean you have to carry an amp too, so you'll still have the weight, but it will be in more than one piece. You could pole mount one of the EV 8" mains on it and have a nice sounding and easy to load setup.
@jbybj has a thread about testing a pair of the SB122 subs along with QSC mains - https://www.talkbass.com/threads/my-subwoofer-chain-putting-together-a-small-pa.1658514/

I had not noticed those recessed handles. Perfect, thanks!

 

[pepj]

You don't need a mini full p.a for that sort of gig, imv so this is all unnecesary faff imv.
A couple of quality active 8 or 10's for vox and percussion if needed.

 

[Wasnex]

You don't need a mini full p.a for that sort of gig, imv so this is all unnecesary faff imv.
A couple of quality active 8 or 10's for vox and percussion if needed.

That's why I recommended the battery powered amps. One or two Roland Cube Street EX's on stands would be plenty. Each has a little mixer and you can run cable to link two, so the sound goes both ways. I believe linking the Cube Street EXs sums the inputs.

For this sort of gig, you could run the entire band through one or two Cube Street EX's, but I recommend each instrumentalist carries their own battery powered amp.

Running everything through one speaker will sound fine to the audience, but it's going to be frustrating for the musicians. Why? Because most players want about 6-10dB more me. The way to get more me is not to have everyone going through the same speaker. Then the mix must be set for the audience and the musicians just have to deal with it.

The way to give everyone a bit of more me is to spread everyone out. Direct sound decreases at a rate of 6dB for each double of distance. So if you are 3' from your bass amp and everyone else is at least 6' from it, you hear the bass 6dB louder than everyone else. Here is the math.

Formula: Decibel Change over Distance = [Log(distance far/distance near) x 20]

Decibel Change From 3' - 6' = [Log(6/3) x 20] = ~6dB

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Yeah, there is that "more ME" factor. But as you say, the band will have to deal with it.

I'm looking to centralize all amplification in a stick PA to simplify band setup/teardown. No coordinating two mixers, no combo amps by each musician, all instruments and vocals go through one mixer. Basically plug in and play. Some of these gigs occur in an assisted living center's main entry hall where they might have a grand piano. Don't want gear and cables and speaker stands and bags etc. cluttering the scene where people are coming and going. Simple simple simple. And must sound great!

 

[One_Dude]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that we use the Bose system being discussed and we are very happy with it. However, it is pretty expensive. In my case the Bose belongs to one of the other band members. I may play some solo dates in the future, and if I do I will use PA equipment that I already own. For a solo date I will need one vocal mic, one instrument mic,, and one input for guitar. So if it's just me, it will be guitar, mandolin, and vocals; no bass. A powered mixer and two 10 inch speakers will be plenty for the size venues we're talking about. I'm at the point where I don't want to haul any more weight than absolutely necessary.

Thump on,

One_Dude

 

[pepj]

All recent gigs gave used 2x10 or 2x8 tops with a sub for the kick. Not sure why we need kick and overhead in the p.a for quite a few gigs but I'm new guy and BL has his ideas.

I think you need to have reasonable expectations with 8's and 10's ...and 90% you need a sub for depth, but we are quite..too..loud at times.

But if you expect kit to produce high levels of volume against their power rating ...and QSC K8's are 'rated' 1000w..then invest in quality kit that can deliver it.
So QSC, Yamaha..and for next level, Nexo is where I'd live.

I've heard some guys...who know what they want..get decent results out of Alto.. but you need eq because they can get boxey, quite easily, imv.

 

[DonaldR]

I have a friend who tried some 10" or 12" PA speakers on a poll and was never satisfied. He's playing acoustic guitar and singing, so I suggested him a Bose L1 Compact. He totally fall in love. No need for monitors also was a great plus. A column array behind you all will give you a sound that will inspire you to play and the crowd to enjoy, as it would not be too loud and will envelop the audience (at least that was the case when I heard Bose L1 couple of times). I wish you that other column arrays are the same.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

What do you think of that Ui16? It sure looks interesting, esp. for ditching a big mixing board and using my iPad or iPhone to go out in the audience and dial in the tone. Really simple setup. Solid 48v phantom power if needed, plus all those effects etc. Nice!

Look the Allen Heath CQ series.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I went with the Electro-Voice EVOLVE 50M for extra headroom. Just arrived and sounds GREAT! My goal was to have this double as a "bass amp" for standalone applications due to a near-future move to a smaller house. It will be perfect for that and for amplifying a band in assisted living centers and nursing homes. This photo shows it with the "short pole" option. Takes literally 30 seconds to set up and power on. There are eight 3.5 inch drivers in the vertical array and a 12 inch sub. The array makes a huge difference in clarity of sound compared to typical cabs pointed at your legs.

 

[bigtone23]

Nice choice!

 

[nutdog]

I went with the Electro-Voice EVOLVE 50M for extra headroom. Just arrived and sounds GREAT! My goal was to have this double as a "bass amp" for standalone applications due to a near-future move to a smaller house. It will be perfect for that and for amplifying a band in assisted living centers and nursing homes. This photo shows it with the "short pole" option. Takes literally 30 seconds to set up and power on. There are eight 3.5 inch drivers in the vertical array and a 12 inch sub. The array makes a huge difference in clarity of sound compared to typical cabs pointed at your legs.

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Awesome

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Sounds more balanced with the regular pole. When standing next to it, my head is in the middle of the array. I've never heard bass produced like this and really like it. Very different feel from traditional, directional cabs that blow past your knees. Really liking this!

 

[4StringDave]

Yes I would say definitely.

We use two db Technology Es602 systems for a rock band, sometimes playing outdoor terraces. Whole band with amps but also in the foh system, including bass. Plenty loud for that. For a nursing home gig you could use practically anything and be loud enough, I'd imagine.

 

[DonaldR]

Sounds more balanced with the regular pole. When standing next to it, my head is in the middle of the array. I've never heard bass produced like this and really like it. Very different feel from traditional, directional cabs that blow past your knees. Really liking this!

Are you using any kind of preamp or just your bass/DI to mixer?

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Are you using any kind of preamp or just your bass/DI to mixer?

My bass signal runs through a Sonic Research tuner, an Fdeck HPF, and a Noble tube preamp/DI. I'm preferring the Noble's EQ to be set flat going straight into the mixer via an XLR mic cable. The tone is gorgeous!

 

[Wasnex]

Sounds more balanced with the regular pole. When standing next to it, my head is in the middle of the array. I've never heard bass produced like this and really like it. Very different feel from traditional, directional cabs that blow past your knees. Really liking this!

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Probably Captain O', but the short pole would be potentially useful if the band and speaker are up on a riser or stage.


When do you test with the full band?

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Probably Captain O', but the short pole would be potentially useful if the band and speaker are up on a riser or stage.


When do you test with the full band?

I agree about being on a riser. The short pole would also be a fine option when using the system as a standalone bass amp.

Testing is a few months out after moving to Sonoma County early next year. I'm creating infrastructure first to minimize friction. Next up is a digital mixer for full band input, sound projection, and recording.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I agree about being on a riser. The short pole would also be a fine option when using the system as a standalone bass amp.

Testing is a few months out after moving to Sonoma County early next year. I'm creating infrastructure first to minimize friction. Next up is a digital mixer for full band input, sound projection, and recording.

I went with a Soundcraft Ui24R digital mixer. Way overkill on the number of inputs but apparently the smaller units have inferior technology. The Studor preamps sound amazing! Built-in 20-channel recording is a major benefit, as are the included effects for each channel and remote, browser-based wireless control of the mixer. Also added a 4U SKB short rack, which contains extra space inside for cables, etc. The ability to store all settings for each channel means quick setup by having each musician plug into the same channels for each session/gig. Digital control is the way to go!