ii/V question

Hi Bill,

good to see you around again...ask Ed about Jon Raney sometime...

For starters, I'd look at the notes in the chord voicings and add them up and see what you get in any situation like this. In your case, we get:

A-7b5 : A,C,Eb,G

D7#9#5 : D,F#,A#(Bb),C,F


Put them together and you get:

G,A,Bb,C,D,Eb,F,F#,G

This is what I call the "Bebop Minor" scale, and it is a good starting point to help people hear minor ii-V's and ii-V-i's as a single tonality rather than as a series of distantly related complex chord scales.

When the i chord is present, I add an extra note to make the scale come out:

G,A,Bb,C,D,Eb,(E),F,F#,G

Adding the option of the natural 6 allows for any of the common ways that pianists and guitarists voice the i chord in minor (as a min7, min6, or as a miMA7). Think of the first five notes of the minor tonality as solid, and the 6th and 7th being variable, depending on what the chordal players and soloist are hearing at that moment.

What is usually a safe bet is that the b6, b7, and Ma7 (from the root of the "parent scale") are usually used over the Valt chord of a minor ii-V progression, since they form the b9, #9, and 3rd of the alt chord (no matter what other color tones may or may not be present, MOST resolving altered dominants will have these three notes in the chord scale).

When you get to the i chord, many pianists will often substitute a mi6 or miMa7 for the notated mi7 chord, so this is when you need to have your ears open to decide which 6th and 7th to play.

So, in your stated example, you've got:

a ii-V in gmi

a ii-V in fmi

and a ii-V in Ebmi with a deceptive resolution to EbMa. A simple scalar line to cover that might go:

A Bb C Eb ...D Eb F F#...G Ab Bb Db...C Db Eb
...........(C#)...................................(B)....
.
E...etc... (Chromatic passing tones in parentheses)


Or, if you prefer the Locrian #2 sound, you could adjust your line over the ii chord accordingly by playing a B natural over the A-7b5 and an A natural over the G-7b5.


Hope this helps shed some light on the subject. You'll probably hear a bunch of other approaches here as well. Good luck!

 

As you know, pianists and guitarists use different types of voicings for different situations and sounds. If a good player is hearing that the music needs more space, they sometimes "thin out" their voicings...an example of this is what Phil DeGreg calls "shell" voicings, which consist of the two guide tones (3rd & 7th or sometimes 6th) and a single color tone. For altered dominants, the color tone is usually an altered 9th or 5th. So you may have been hearing some of these from the piano.

Does the #9 imply the #5 on the dominant? Depends on who you ask. I usually use it in minor as a kind of "default sonority" for the following reason:

Key: Cmi

V7#9,#5 = G7#9(#5) = (G) F, A#, B, Eb

The #5 in this case is Eb, the 3rd of the key of resolution (Cmi), so you can't really go wrong with it as part of the overall sound (as opposed to a natural 6th on the V7 chord, which usually sounds better resolving to Major). Either way, whether the #5 is there in the voicing or not, it will fit in your line as long as the pianist is not playing an natural 6th (13) in his voicing.

Remember, the term "alt" means different things to different folks. I have some Canadian students in my class this year, and to them, "alt" means 7#9#5. To me, "alt" just means that there is some coloristic alteration of the dominant chord, usually including the 9th. This leaves room for all kinds of interpretation on the part of each rhythm section and soloist, depending on what they are hearing at that time. But the scale I mentioned works fine over plain old #9 chords, b9 chords, #9#5 chords, pretty much everything but a b9(13) chord, which implies notes outside of the parent key.

And I do think that those chords in the example you sent are resolving by 5th, they just all have deceptive resolutions.

 

Velcome to Chamey Aebersolt BOOT CAMP, yah! Vee VILL Teach you zu play ze olt TOO FIFE ONEZZZ, yah! Und iff you do NOT learn zu play zzem in ALL TWALF KEYSSZZ, you vill suffer ZE CONSEQUENZES!!


(...ahem...)


That's funny, I don't remember covering any Latin or physics in any of my music classes...what a coincidence!

 

JAZZBODEREK,

For the record, the "Bebop minor" scale has nothing to do with Jamey...in fact, he doesn't use it, doesn't teach it, might not even have heard of it. This approach is in many ways contrary to his own, which almost always includes a separate scale for each chord symbol.

Still, resist all you want...

 

Except for the fact that there is a difference between "letter of the law" and "intent of the law". Conventional wisdom says that "alt" means #9 and #5. But listen to what these guys PLAY, and you hear that "alt" means whatever altered sound you are hearing/feeling at that moment.

And remember, most pianists don't play BOTH sets of altered tensions in one voicing. 7#9#5 implies just what it says: 1, 3, #5, b7, #9. While most people find that a #9 implies a b9 in the scale and vice-versa, the same is not true of the 5th. If, for instance, the pianist plays 1, 3, b5, 7, b9....then the scale choice is left open, as this construction supports both Dim/whole tone and Diminished scales.

I've been hanging with these guys for a long time now, and I think that most of them will tell you that chord-scale relationships are not the name of the game; they are just an entryway into the arena. Once you really start playing, it's about what you are hearing melodically...in other words, when you are playing on the concerts, you don't have to get a permission slip from Jamey to play what you are feeling over the altered-dominant chords, even if it's not a dim/whole-tone scale.

Personally, I loathe the sound of the #4 (b5) in a resolving dominant chord 95% of the time, so I almost never use that sound melodically (although I do use it in voicings as a tension builder at times). I play with Jamey (who has huge ears) a couple of times a month, and he's never mentioned it. He DOES teach it as one way into the altered dominant sound, but it's just one of many different ways into the same room, which is bigger than any of its doorways.