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ii-V7-i cycle extensions and tri-tone subs

Discussion in 'Ask Michael Dimin' started by jeff schmidt, Aug 28, 2004.


  1. jeff schmidt

    jeff schmidt no longer red carded, but my butt is still sore.

    Aug 27, 2004
    Novato, CA
    While I understand how ii-V7-i cycle extentions are created (eg -temporarily treating the D7 in key of G as a i to add the extra chords) and tri-tone subs - (eg - changing the D7 in a G ii-V7-i to Ab) I'm unclear about how to improvise solos through these kinds of alterations.

    Do I treat the extra ii-V7 chords derived from treating the D7 as a i chord in example 1 as a key center change?

    Same question for tri-tone subs. Does the new Ab7 in a G ii-V7-i behave as a key center change for the purpose of crafting impovised melodies?

    Am I even asking the correct question?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. Mike Dimin

    Mike Dimin

    Dec 11, 1999
    Clinician: EA, Zon, Boomerang, TI. Author "The Art of Solo Bass"

    Jeff,
    Although I am not quite sure what you mean my this:
    let me see if I can be of some help.

    when soling over a cycle of ii-v's I usually define tonal centers. I work within each tonal center but AND HERE IS THE KEY. I stay within the same position and look to accentuate the different notes in each tonal center. For example, in the turnaround to Mingus' Nostalgia in Time Square the changes are D-7 G7| C-7 F7| Bb-7 Eb7| F|. There is an obvious change in Tonal Centers from C to Bb to Ab (1 per measure). It is ridiculous to try and play in those different keys, it is however, brilliant to notice the similarities and differences that the keys present. use the similarities to develop sequnces and other strong melodic devices while using the differences to give each tonal center it's unique quality. I might play a melodic sequence that has both a D and E natural (key of C) moving to a D and Eb (from C dorian, key of Bb) to a Db and Eb (key of Ab, C phrygian). this help?

    As for the sub fives. If it only 2 beats, I might not change anything. You'll create a b9 and a b5 if you play over the original chord change). If it is longer, I would play a lydian b7 as you posted in the other thread.

    Finally for both of these, I might simply work off of the chord tones, using approach notes to jazz it up a bit (voice yells at me "hey, what do you think you are some stinkin' jazz guitarist")

    Mike
     
  3. jeff schmidt

    jeff schmidt no longer red carded, but my butt is still sore.

    Aug 27, 2004
    Novato, CA
    Thanks for the reply Michael. I just picked up your CD from CD baby - can't wait to get it.

    So - let me make sure I understand.

    2-5-1 in the key of C = Dm, G7, Cmaj. But for improve and spice purposes - say we temporarily treat the G7 as a 1 chord and preceed it with a Am and D7 - would I approach that alteration as a shift in key center from C to G and then back to G?

    Also - if we b5 sub the G7 to C# - you say you pretty much ignore the change unless it lasts for more than a bar?

    Thanks for the clarification.
     
  4. Mike Dimin

    Mike Dimin

    Dec 11, 1999
    Clinician: EA, Zon, Boomerang, TI. Author "The Art of Solo Bass"
    Jeff,

    Thanks for buying the CD, it is much appreciated. To answer your first question - the Am7 to D7 is in the key of G while the Dm7 and G7 is in the key of C (or tonal center). Although I would think this, I would also think that the difference between the key of C and G is only 1 note - F to F#. Therefore I would try to accentuate the difference. If you have the ability to record or loop the progression. Play only an F# leading to an F, then add a short melodic phrase, that differs only in those 2 notes. After that try some melodic sequences that again play on the F# to F difference. Don't change positions, dont think from the tonal center up.

    For the sub V, the proper scale woul dbe lydian b7 from the root of the sub V chord. You can do the same thing as above, find the common tones and the different tones and accentuate the differences. For example let's use the Dm7 to G7 example. If you played as written you would be in the key of C. If you substituted a Db7 for the G7, your new scale would be
    Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db.

    There are obviously are a lot more differences and you can use those to your advantage. There are, however 2 things to consider. The first is that if you have only 2 beats of the Db7 chord, you might not hear the alteration in the piano/guitar and be able to adjust until it is too late. Secondly, if you have a line going that has form and structure, you might not want to adjust it for such a short period of time. If however the Sub V is actually part of the tune or it lasts longer than 2 beats and you DON'T go to it - you run the risk of being a bit "square", as they say. If you know it's coming and you are able to fluently move between the C major and the Db lydian b7 then, by all means - go for it.

    Hope this helps
    Mike