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In a mess about cabs for months :O

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by SuperRich, Jul 20, 2012.


  1. SuperRich

    SuperRich

    Jul 19, 2012
    I just wanna buy the right thing you know?

    I have got a GK1001rb and a GK210RBH which I bought together with the intention of getting a 115

    iv since read that this isnt a good idea! so at the moment I have just above half power going into a good quality 210, but it dosnt quite have the volume and bottom end I need for the medium gigs, and I want it to look cooler with a bigger cab if Im honest.

    so would I be better off getting a 4ohm 410 and just ditching the 210. ORRR getting an 8ohm 410, using that mainly and adding the 210 for bigger gigs.

    which would provide more volume?


    Im pretty sure the two cabs idea would work better, I know the 210 would be getting the same power as the 410. but I run it like that anyway and it still sounds good.

    also I dont want another 210 as it lacks the low end. my cabs low is 60hz


    soooo 2 cabs? when I can upgrade to another 410 cab later if I need it.
     
  2. Get an 8 ohm 410 & another later if more volume is needed.
    If u get one 8 ohm 410 & use it with an 8 ohm 210, the 210 will be getting the same amount of power the 410 gets, so quite possible to over power-blow the 210.
    Or, given the choice, get an 8 ohm 212 & another later. Easier form factor (imo) & less weight & (afaik) better dispersion than the squat 410. But-2 stacked 410's are great fun :D
     
  3. JEBassman

    JEBassman Supporting Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    Connecticut
    I've read conflicting opinions about speaker cab specs and combinations. The most common denominator is, is depends on the specific setup, and your personal likes and style.

    That said, I have a setup with two Aguilar cabs, one 2 X 10 and one 15, which sounds absolutely killer! Initially I purchased the GS210, together with my Eden traveler WT550 amp. There was nowhere near enough bottom end for my personal taste. I added a GS115, with both cabs at 8 ohms each, and have been very happy ever since.

    For a lighter, more portable rig, I went with two Markbass 15s, with a LMII. I wanted more full tone, and the two 15s deliver. Their tweeters also give me lots of highs, which I can adjust.

    You'll find bassists who like these setups and others who can't stand them, so keep that range of opinions in mind. If you're not content with your 210, I'd recommend adding a 12 or a 15. Are you able to get to a music store where you can test some cabs? If not, is renting a cab an option, to try with your band?

    Hope that helps. Good luck! Joel :bassist:
     
  4. LouieV2

    LouieV2

    Jan 9, 2011
    Boston, MA
    Sounds to me like you need an Ampeg SVT410 HLF. huge low end and so much power for a 4x10 its ridiculous. Just do yourself a favor,.get one and be done with it.
     
  5. popgadget

    popgadget Commercial User

    Sep 4, 2005
    Eastern, PA USA
    Authorized Greenboy Designs Builder, Scabbey Road
    The Ampeg has a big low end (deeper than their 810), but it's far from flat. My 1212 fEARful far outperforms my Ampeg 410. I'm sure that a 15/6 would as well. There's a whole new world of cabs out there, fEARful, Barefaced, Audiokinesis, etc.
     
  6. +1 to this post

    Stick with a 8 Ohm cab. Your head has enough power to drive an 8 Ohm 410 to its limits, there is no more volume or power gained by going to a 4 Ohm cab. What it does do is limit your expandability to a second cab.

    Science isnt opinion. Peoples beliefs are.

    Matching cabs will not introduce phasing issues the way mixing cabs can. Some times you get lucky. Do you have the option of playing the cabs at every venue you might play to test it out? On top of that if the OP is looking for blistering volume, matched cabs are going to have the same power ratings. Less change of making one go "Pop."
     
  7. SuperRich

    SuperRich

    Jul 19, 2012
    Thanks guyyyyyyyys! 410 at 8ohm it is :D
     
  8. I'm not going to contradict CL400Peavey, but watch and listen to alot of the pros rigs. They often include a mixture of speakers, in spite of all the arguements we hear on TB against it. A 410 or even a 212 8ohm does sound like it will work great for you atbthis time. Don't limit yourself to whatever any of us may say on TB, look and listen for yourself. Endorsements aside, the pros I know want the best possible sound they can get whatever does that for them.
     
  9. dukeorock

    dukeorock Owner BNA Audio Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 8, 2011
    Nashville, TN
    Authorized greenboy designs builder/Owner of BNA Audio
    I've been a full time pro for over 20 years...CLPeavey400 is spot on...it really is simple...I get free rigs all the time too...for years I just used what they gave me like so many other 'pros' because it was free...and most of the stuff I had was pretty darn good too...once you hear the real thing, it's pretty tough to go backwards, and I know a lot of actual pros who are now paying for the BEST cabs instead of taking what they can get for free. This isn't an endorsement for one cab in particular, btw. There are several really great ones out there getting it right...just sayin' :)
     
  10. Okay Dukeorock, what's the real thing? My only endorsement is with a case company, so amps and basses have been my own choice for 50 years of pro playing. I'm still not sure what I'd classify as the real thing, but I do know what doesn't do it for me. This is not meant to be a wiseguy comment, I'd really like to hear your opinion.
     

  11. Again......."Pros" are not acoustic engineers, so they have no clue about the issues involved with mixed driver sizes running at full range. However, they CAN afford to play mix and match all they want until they find a combo that sounds good together.

    Working stiffs don't have that ability to go through cab after cab looking for the right match.

    The safest way to ensure that cabs work well together is by using matching cabs, so that should always be the first recommendation (unless you don't care about others finances).
     
  12. RickenBoogie

    RickenBoogie

    Jul 22, 2007
    Dallas, TX
    +1 if you go with what you see the "pro's" using, then the abominable 410/115 pairing will come up. This is proven a bad pairing, and yet, still very popular. equally popular, threads on the subject, "why did I blow my 1x15 cab?".
     
  13. Just played through a Hartke 410/115 provided backline, and it sounded great. I know, if it was two 410 cabs it would have sounded better, and it didn't sound as good as my PJB rig, but it was a good sounding rig. And best of all, all I had to bring was my P-bass.
     
  14. Dantreige

    Dantreige

    Oct 22, 2009
    Wisconsin
    I don't want to start a whole flame war, but a lot of "pros" don't know a thing about sound and sound reinforcement. That's why they have techs to do the work for them.

    We see this all the time in the Live Sound Forums. A sound tech will ask how do I get so-and-so's rig to sound good? The pro wants them to split the stack across the stage, use a sub (the sub will cancel out the FOH in most cases.), or use a bunch of mismatched cabs. It's always a recipe for disaster.

    Also, "pros" are often paid to use a companies product on stage. Often, that product is not plugged in or being used. (Hint: No one is actually using three Mashall half stacks. ;) I'm pretty sure Geddy does not play through a washer or dryer.)

    Here is some quick real world science.

    1) Using different cabs causes phase cancelations. Why? Because often the signal going to the different cabs is the same, but the speakers themselves are not. Even if you are running two 15's, if they do not match (same cab and same speaker), you will have problems. If you run a 2x10 and a 1x15, you can have good results if you use a crossover to split the signal to the cabs. This way, your cabs are acting more like a FOH system. (Highs, mids, and subs.) The different cabs are not trying to reproduce the same frequencies.

    2) Placing speakers side by side causes comb filtering. (Classic 4x10 configuration.) The sound of the right and left speakers in a 4x10 are reaching your ear at different times. Often this is not noticable. This problem is more common for FOH. If you have been to a concert in recent years you will notice that the speakers are often line arrays (or J arrays). This is different form the "wall of sound" thing tryed by the Grateful Dead (Masses of speakers placed side by side). Why are line arrays superior? There are less comb filtering problems and the sound can be directed precisely where needed (to your face). With a "wall of sound" the sound from many sources are reaching your ear at different intervals because of the distance of you ear to the speakers. The important point is to take note of the verticle stacking of the arrays

    3) Placing speakers on top of each other does a few things. One, if you are stacking the same speaker in the same box, frequency responce smooths as you stack higher and higher. A single speaker can have a jagged responce curve, but stacking more of the same speaker will smooth it out. (You often hear people talking about "girth". I believe this is what they are hearing.)

    4) Sound does not work like a flashlight, it works like a tub of water. Think of air as a liquid. If you fill a tub with water and you smack it with your hand, it creates waves. Try smacking the water with both hands. The waves will interact with each other. Some times they will add or cancel each other.

    5) Low frequencies are harder to reproduce well. For one, people do not have a flat responce in there ears. Humans are made to hear mid frequecies better then low (or high) frequecies. That means we have to bump up lows and provide more power to get the same percieved loudness. Also, it takes more power to reproduce a low frequency then a high one. It is not a linear scale. (That's why we have subs that have 2000 watts and high/mid boxes that only need 500. The subs are only reproducing 40-120 hertz, the high/mids are doing the rest. 120-20k.)

    6) Low frequecies can pass through objects and can be omnidirectional. Mids and highs or more prone to reflect or be absorbed. We have all heard a band playing in the distance. What do you hear? The lows! They are passing through walls and objects, not bouncing around them.

    I often caution people not to use different cabs, too much low end on stage, and too educate themselves about sound for all of the above reasons.

    I consider myself a "pro", I'm just in the minor leagues. :)

    I wish Bill FitzMaurice was still here. He is a musician and an engineer. He could explain this better then me. Alas, some fine folks on TB ran him off for giving good advice.

    All that said, I would recomend a 1x12 cab. Find one you like and stack as many as you need to get the SPL you require. A verticle 2x10 is another option. (Add another (vertical) if you wish).


    Good luck!
     
  15. If your 2x10 is a 4ohm model, you could rewire it to 16ohms and use it with an 8ohm 4x10. This is a 'perfect' load- 5.33ohms and all 10's would receive identical power.
    If you have 2x10/4x10 cabs of the same make and series, it will probably sound pretty good.
     
  16. "Q"

    "Q"

    Feb 9, 2010
    Sacramento, CA
    Anytime you use multiple drivers you get comb filtering. The more drivers the more comb filtering and not just horizontally either.

    Realize comb filtering is a phasing issue too.

    Realize running a separate tweeter or mid creates phasing issues of it's own.

    Realize that, due to baffle step, the bottom cab will have a much different bass response than the top cab even if they are otherwise identical thus making the cabs mismatched again.

    Science is good.....it's fantastic....I love it. But if we're going to do science we have to do all of it and not just a factoid here and there.

    And for the record, I'm not saying anyone was "wrong" about anything. There's just things that haven't been taken into account.
     
  17. Dantreige

    Dantreige

    Oct 22, 2009
    Wisconsin
    Q, all of your points are valid. I'll update my post to clairify.
     
  18. Chef

    Chef Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    May 23, 2004
    Columbia MO
    Staff Reviewer; Bass Gear Magazine
    With a GK1001, you really ought to get a GK Neo cab.
    The 1001 has GK's biamp feature lets you send a dirty signal (GK Boost knob) to the paper woofers, and use it's separate clean amp to send a clean signal to the horn.

    This is really nice.

    Both the Neo212 and 410 work very well with that head.
    The 212 is a nicely balanced cab, the 410 has a little more bottom end and is a touch less even thru the mids...

    One of either is enough for most gigs for me, two of either is more than I need for any gig.
     
  19. Long before I learned of the downside of mixing cabs, I owned a Marshall 410/115 and then a GK SBX 410/115. My sound Never seemed to be "balanced". The further away I stood from my amp, the more "confused" my sound got. As soon as I had the opportunity to aquire another SBX 410, I jumped on it. (2) stacked SBX 410's sound WAY BETTER than the 410/115 stack. I sold the 115 and never looked back!
     
  20. "Q"

    "Q"

    Feb 9, 2010
    Sacramento, CA
    What made you get the second 410?
     

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