Jeff Berlin says = Question Everything that Bass Players Teach You. Question me, too!

I just looked at the backgrounds of the top 10 richest bass players of all time, and there appears to be virtually no academic musical background amongst them. Perhaps there is more to being a good musician than memorizing names of modes and practicing chord tones?

Paul McCartney

Sting

Gene Simmons

Roger Waters

Adam Clayton

Flea

John Paul Jones

Geezer Butler

Tony Kanal

Krist Novoselic

 

Don't use his name? Nonsense, and enough with the silly games. It's Victor Wooten. Don't like me saying that? Tough.

Whatever causes you to constantly run other people down must be what causes me to never ever consider spending a dime on a product you push.

 

I'd previously seen the video concerning the theoretical number of keys. While 30 wasn't the preconceived answer I had, in terms of the Circle of Fifths, it was a rational and logical answer. I was delighted by his explanation as a musically useful way to conceive of a larger reality of tonal music.

Ab isn't G#. They may be played that way on even-tempered instruments but they are not organically the same. As a trombonist playing in an orchestral context, I can say with certainty that a G# as part of an E major chord is played differently than an Ab as a root an Ab major chord. The two pitches have been artificially conflated and that's convenient in a lot of ways. Just because it can't be well-expressed on an even-tempered instrument doesn't mean it's non-existent.

Dismissing that reality as irrelevant to bass guitarists, who should only conceive of there being 12 practical keys (plus their relative minors) is problematic. It seems your position seeks to over-simplify a complicated theoretical musical principle for easier consumption.

The hypocrisy of your two statements was remarkable. At first, you assert that bass guitarist should ignore the idea of 30 keys because it isn't germane to the study practicing and playing of their instrument, then you accuse instructors of dumbing-down music for the presumed convenience of the student. Just because you personally don't view a musical concept as immediately useful to a student doesn't mean it should ignored or discouraged. It might benefit them in ways you hadn't thought of. After all, isn't that the magic part - when they take something you taught them and use it in new and inventive ways?

 

So it’s true what they’ve said about you. Also true is the maxim that if you meet your heroes they will disappoint you.

 

Everyone knows who you're talking about. All you do is troll other teachers. Dont play the innocent fool.

 

Are these exceptions, or the rule? I’m fortunate enough to be richer than many good musicians I know, who are far better musicians / bassists than I am. Perhaps income is not at all related to musical ability or knowledge?

 

The way I see it, the problem isn't the specific information being laid out by two different teachers. I couldn't say how many of the keys are relevant to a bassist specifically (to a musician surely all of them? Idk.), I'm not really qualified to answer that. BUT the musical information, as we all know, is concrete. It represents fixed points, the difference is always how the points are approached by these two fine musicians. So the operative issue is the 'spirit' of the method employed to elucidate the bedrock of concrete musical facts.

If you want to read all of it then I appreciate your time! If not then I'll summarise by saying this:

"One of them sneaks up to the harmony with the groove in his hand, jumps in and waves the groove around 'til it thumps the harmony on the head. He and his family eat at the end of the day. The other guy walks up to the harmony and tickles it once behind the ear, the harmony follows him home. He and his eat just as well at the end of the day."

Can you guess which is which? lol


HEADLINE: Berlin vs. Wooten case, startling testimony!
(cat was let out of the bag by 5thsand4ths anyway, sry)

Firstly:
1) I'm a great fan of Vic's playing and many of his musical views.
2) He's influenced my playing greatly.
3) Regardless, I'm just as willing as he is to accept that he's capable of being wrong about anything. I don't subscribe to any cult of personality. (except for that Living Colour song!)

I know that I do not know. About a great many things.
And from what I've heard him say, I think Vic would happily say the same of himself. As would Anthony. They are both very cool dudes.

I agree when he says, for instance, that what students of his method have affectionately called '2 through 10' doesn't receive enough attention and that phrasing/proper coordination of 2-10 essentially constitutes groove as an entity. Additionally, his adaptation of Mahayana Buddhism and zen to bass guitar is invigorating!

Ok, so where do you disagree with him? I hear you cry?

Vic's zen treatment of '#1 - the notes' however, is the point-source of the disagreement between Vic and Jeff to me and is the issue I personally diverge from Vic on.

So I'm just gonna type my stream of consciousness forthwith in an attempt to puzzle it out:

VICTOR ON MY LEFT SAYS - 'It easy! Just groove your way to the right notes, when the right notes are unknown to you. Use 2-10 to carry the tune until you figure 'em out'.

Sweet! Think I. In this way, not knowing the right notes immediately in an improvisational setting can be smoothed over by correct phrasing of 2-10. In essence, this is so that enough musical information can be passed on to the listener for them to fill in the blanks that you've left. When you do find the right notes, you already have the stable construct of 2-10 to feed them into.

My personal thoughts on Victors 'zen notes'.
On the face of it very liberating. For me though, his method of "random notes + groove until right notes are isolated" skirts dangerously close to an 'I-Ching chance operation' approach (See John Cage's Music of Changes, great stuff! ). Basically to throw my bass up in the air and whichever fret I catch the bass on is karmically the right note. Everything in your life up to now has resulted in this. It's pretty deep listen to the universe type stuff.

Though I can channel the method well enough to see how/if it works (and it does to a degree) and I have the evidence of his exceptional technique on the bass, relinquishing my note choice to random or subconscious chance feels wrong. It is great fun and if I'd started playing as a child, I would've liked to be taught this way in concert with theoretical studies. But I do feel now that the method is lacking a "certain mystery 10th" that makes the other 9/10th's functional.

In Groove Workshop, he says that 'the audience won't wait for me or you to find the right notes' or something similar. True, I am equally impatient. To use his language analogy, in the same way I don't want to wait on a public speaker to find the right words. However, neither do I want them to push through the absence of the right words in an effort to hold my attention, as what they say will probably come out as nonsensical.

In the end Victor will have to concede that he is still finding the right notes to play, just like Jeff. Only he's tries to intuitively carry everything with 2-10 until he's got them whereas Jeff would rather know them first, then play.

SUMMARY
Victor's approach applies nicely to the world of free solo/ensemble improv, where in a way the right notes seem subordinate to the general direction of the music to me in a broad free jazz kinda way. But it doesn't necessarily apply as seamlessly to other settings with pre-written material. This to me is where Victor stops and Jeff begins.

SO THEN...

JEFF ON MY RIGHT SAYS - 'Learn to the point (ideally) where your knowledge enables you to play the right notes at all times.'

or alternately

'Groove comes last, not first!'

With Jeff's approach I need to say less (which maybe says something in itself? Idk.). The point of departure here is that you'd never have to worry about finding the right notes, if you had comprehensive knowledge of your current musical terrain, (Harmonically, where have I come from? Where am I? Where am I going?), in ideal conditions you could go directly to applying groove (Vic's 2-10) to the music.

The difference appears to be: V - 'Speak before you think. Rely on intuition to guide your hands.', which isn't of itself wrong vs. J - 'Think before you speak. Rely on the data.', which again, isn't of itself wrong.

Intuition i.e. following your ears does work. But knowing where you are harmonically at all times will allow you to focus that intuition to achieve an even higher standard, no? I say this because where I am at has led me to fusing these two mindsets together and I have found Victor's approach useful for acquiring fluid technique just as Jeff's approach has increased my knowledge of theory greatly.

The divergence of views here seems to because their points of departure are different owing to their unique experiences of music. This is not unusual, it probably happens ten-thousand times per second.

As far as education/method/pedagogy (whatever the hell you call it!) goes, the two questions that arise are:
1) Which method yields the highest and most consistent standard of output across the whole board? (global education issue)
2) Are there times when a methodology other than that of the current tradition may be used in order to accomplish a specific musical goal? (personal musical development issue)

P.S.
Thus far I haven't seen anything that I could comfortably label selfish or self-aggrandising, from Jeff at least.
In his recent posts, I have only ever seen Jeff state:

1) His current standing in the world of bass. (Admittedly those who are aware, cannot get any more aware.) If it is narcissism to simply state ones credentials/experience/beliefs, then we must get 1,000,000 narcissistic posts a day on TB! It is not a crime to talk about oneself if doing so is relevant to the discourse. In this instance, a personal experience of another teaching was the catalyst for the post, so I have no complaint.

2) His honest belief that something is going awry in the education sector. If he honestly thinks so then that it his belief, fair enough and 'nuff said. (We are not in the habit of aggressively trash-talking people based on their beliefs, are we?)

3) His desire to engage with us directly in rational debate about these topics. Something he's encountered resistance to, from us of all people!

Jeff has simply said that he disagrees. That is not enough to qualify as narcissism in my book, even if he repeatedly disagrees. We all do this daily. I do not believe for one second that Jeff is disagreeing for it's own sake. That would be a waste of time. If I say to my bandmates that I disagree with a certain facet of our approach, I am neither labelled a narcissist nor attacked for voicing my concerns and we do not end up in a lightsaber duel over it. Maybe we should start, who knows, we could learn to play all the instruments with The Force?!

 

Mr. Berlin can't make one single topic relevant to learning, without disparaging either a specific person or an entire industry. Then he innocently pretends not to. "What? who me?"

Personally, I can't see any need for him to cherrypick that one tiny musical topic concerning 30 keys, other than to try to try to build himself up by running someone else down. Berlin is in absolutely no position to dethrone Wooten, in any way, shape, form or fashion so he needs to forgot that. Just don't do that again.

My thing is, if he believes he has the answer to bass education, why doesn't he get off here and go teach. Why talk about it all the time? Because as big a name as he believes he is, none of the really active/in demand bassist spend any time on TB. They are too busy.

And lets be real... For all the digital ink that's been spilled on the Berlin forum, can anyone actually say that they have learned anything that could help their playing? From my point of view, it's mostly a bunch of circular arguments from various points of view that never go anywhere.

I'm very willing to receive education from any credible source. But at some point, the "teacher' needs to actually teach, not simply tell everyone constantly how his way of thinking is beyond everyone else's. That's not gonna get you any converts. Yet, for all the blah, blah I can't see one single step he has taken to teach anything.

And it's so funny how he will spam a topic in another (disallowed) forum, knowing it will be moved here. Chum in the water...

The Berlin forum is so beautifully bizarre in that it's like the proverbial train wreck that is so horrific, but you can't look away. It is sublime in its dysfunction. Great entertainment.

 

I don't find anything you say offensive. Why should I? You've never openly attacked anyone on this forum. You seem very polite here. I have seen you publicly...

Concerning your delivery, I have to admit, that it took a change in my perception of you and your ideas. Lately, I've come to understanding that your posts will (most likely) never help me musically.

I suppose, that initially I was a bit frustrated that you never seemed to teach anything but talked a great deal, whereas other great players share playing information all the time. It hasn't seemed to hurt them financially.

However, I've come to very much appreciate the entertainment value of your forum.

 

Have you considered contributing to existing threads on technique and general education? You seem to have passionate views on what you consider the right and wrong way to do things. There are hundreds of threads on how to play. I'd imagine you'd have a lot to say on the questions asked and answered.

 

Ya know? The whole "catch more flies with honey than vinegar thing..." Share some experience. Tell some good stories.

 

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