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Key of chord progression with 4 major or 4 minor or 2 diminished chords?

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by ThePresident777, Feb 19, 2016.


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  1. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Correct, and in either mode of the diminished scale all 5ths are diminished, all 3rds are minor and all 7ths are diminished.
     
  2. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Could you explain us about using flats and sharps to write the same diminished scale?
    ds2.PNG ds1.PNG
    ds3.PNG

    "Dominant diminished is what we call a symmetrical scale: there is a symmetry to the interval construction of the scale (alternating half steps and whole steps). Because of its interval construction, this scale is also referred to as the half-whole diminished scale."
    dds.PNG

    ds5.PNG

    Dds1.PNG
    Dds2.PNG
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  3. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Could you tell us more about the DIFFERENCES between the Jazz Harmonic Minor and the Classical Harmonic Minor scales?

    Are you talking about The Harmonic Minor Bebop Scale?
    Chmbs.PNG

    Clef_de_fa, you did not mentioned The Double Harmonic minor scale, or Hungarian Minor scale, or "Gypsy"(?) minor scale.
    Hungarian minor scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    hms.PNG
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  4. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    What's to explain? The only observation I might make on your diagrams is that accidentals are applied to the 5th, which given the importance of the 5th I would not do, preferring to go, say, C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C.
     
  5. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I was checking a different TB thread, "Lydian Diminished Scale (4th mode of the harmonic minor scale)" and found this:
    Double Diminished Demystified by Michael Wolff.

    "I first learned about the double diminished scale in the 1970s, inspired by pianists like Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock.
    Ex. 1a illustrates the idea of this scale, with a root of F. It’s derived from two diminished seventh chords a half-step away from each other: Fdim7 and F#dim7, shown"
    Double Diminished Demystified





    ddd.PNG

    ddd2.PNG
     
  6. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Here is how John Goldsby writes C diminished scale:
    jgds.PNG
     
  7. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    That's a characteristic of the diminished scale (two interlocking Dim7 chords offset by a tone or a semitone ) and one way of constructing it.

    Here's what I want to know. How is it you seem to have all the time in the world to scour the Internet for extracts from obscure 'papers' and theses on often advanced (although IMHO sometimes over-thought) ideas, annotate/highlight them, post them asking others to explain the minutiae whilst at the same time picking apart the other contributions yet never providing even partial answers to the questions yourself? Explain that, please...
     
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  8. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    So who is right, me or him, and why?
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  9. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    Don't like any of those exemple... to many skip a tone ... why many don't even mention E or G instead they put more accidential on the previous note ... I don't like it
     
    Whousedtoplay and SteveCS like this.
  10. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    No I see that I mixed the harmonic minor with the melodic minor scale, my bad
     
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  11. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Still dodging the question. Never mind, I'm out.
     
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  12. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Now Steve is mad at me.

    I prefer your spelling of the diminished scale, but John Goldsby's spelling is "more proper".
    The diminished/octatonic (8 tones) scale does not allow as "smoothly" spell the 7-scale notes like C D E F (instead of E#), etc...

    John Goldsby's spelling, more or less, allows us to follow those rules
    - (C), (D), (E)b, (F) - the first minor tetrachord, plus
    (F)# (G)# (A) (C) - the second minor tetrachord.

    If we spell the C diminished scale with flats only, we get the following: 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7

    Here is how Wikipedia spells it:
    dsw.PNG

    Now.
    Do I care about it?

    NO, NO, and NO. I'm not going to waste my time arguing all those "enharmonic-equivalent" preferences.
     
  13. RustyAxe

    RustyAxe

    Jul 8, 2008
    Connecticut
    And this thread is WHY people say that knowing "theory" isn't necessary to be a bassist. When music instruction becomes nothing more than pure pedantry, it loses its value. I'm glad I wasn't taught theory this way!
     
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  14. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    FYI - a C diminished scale (C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C), contains the Major 7th - B natural, as well as the Diminished 7th - A natural/Bbb.
    Thanks.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  15. This has probably already been mentioned but look for Dominant 7 chords. In jazz theory they are always the V chord. To find the key of a piece in any particular section of a tune, look for a Dominant 7 preceding a major or minor chord.
     
  16. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    That 8-tone/octatonic scale messes up with my chord building system.
    If we "frivolously" take some notes from the C diminished scale
    - C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C,
    we are going to have the Dm7 chord.
     
  17. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Yes - that collection of notes, DFAC, does (literally) spell a "Dmin7". However, in the harmonic context of a C diminished chord, (that is, appearing as "sounds" in a C diminished chord), that "Dmin7" is not functioning as a chord with a root of "D" - the root of the chord is still a "C".
    Those notes function as:
    D = 9
    F = 11
    A = dim7
    C = root
    In other words, it is a happy coincidence that it spells Dmin7, but I wouldn't expect it to behave or function like a Dmin7 chord - It's functionally misleading to think of it as a Dmin7 chord when it appears in the harmonic context of a
    C diminished chord.
    Is this at all helpful?
    Thanks, WUTP.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  18. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Thanks Don, but I don't think I'm the one who requires clarification. In an octatonic scale, seven-tone naming conventions don't really apply and a new way of thinking is required.
    From any degree, go up 7 steps and the interval is dim - period. Go up 8 and it can be min or maj depending on mode... One might call it subsonic or leading note. In the absence of an accepted convention I don't really care, but let's not have two sevenths, please.
     
  19. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    This is the part that easily confuse me, if a Cdim 7 chord or appegio is :
    C-Eb-Gb-Bbb ( you know to keep that Root-3rd-5th-7th form ) then the scale should be C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bbb-Cb
     
  20. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    The interval of "C, up 11 half-steps to B", is a Major 7th.
    It's very common to analyze and name a chord "Xdim7,maj7.......", for example.

    7 steps = a major 9th. (C :+7steps gets you to "D", an octave and a Major Second above).
    Did you miscalculate, or am I not understanding your measurement system?
    Thanks for your time and interest.
     
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