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Key of chord progression with 4 major or 4 minor or 2 diminished chords?

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by ThePresident777, Feb 19, 2016.


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  1. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Yes - Strict Theoreticians would call the last 2 notes "Bbb, B", but it is more user-friendly and common to spell them "A, B".
    Strict Theoreticians follow this rule : Any named interval (within an octave) involving any "C" to any "B", is, by definition, a "....Seventh", of some kind. Bbb and Bnatural are both measured and named "...Sevenths". One is a Diminished Seventh and one is a Major Seventh.
    The interval "C up to Cb" is not usually named a "Flat Octave", of a "Flatted 8th" - it just isn't done.
    I am NOT a Strict Theoretician.
    Thanks for your time, interest, and civility.
     
  2. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    OK. I think you meant to say "scale degrees" not "steps" - "steps" being a (whole)step or major second interval in Music Theory. "Scale Degrees" are the notes of a scale, arranged in ascending order, in this case.
    Yes - the 7th scale degree of a C diminished scale (Bbb) is a Diminished 7th interval, while the 8th scale degree (B) is a Major 7th interval.
    You're Welcome!
     
    SteveCS likes this.
  3. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    I guess I'm a strict theoretician then
     
    Don Kasper likes this.
  4. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Just curious, then - how would you name the interval "C - Cb"?
    "Diminished Octave"?
    Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
     
  5. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    flat octave or flat root. As I see it, every note name comes one time
     
  6. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Asked and answered.
    Thanks.
     
  7. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Sorry Don, I'm a brit so step is degree not tone. Of course I meant degree.
     
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  8. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. Just something to read about the diminished scale.
    I know for some educated TB members it's a boring subject but I hope it could be interesting for some amateur musicians like WUTP.
    NOTHING PERSONAL!!!:rollno: :banghead:


    http://legacy.earlham.edu/~tobeyfo/...ts2014/AssignmentDocs/The Octatonic Scale.pdf

    "The scale comes in two modes, depending on whether the order begins with a half or a whole step:
    The first mode, in C, is C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C
    The second mode, in C, is C D Eb F Gb Ab A B C

    ds1.PNG ds2.PNG


    The Octatonic scale | Deciphering Music Theory.com

    ds3.PNG
    ds4.PNG
     
    ThePresident777 likes this.
  9. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    The C dim7 chord or arpeggio - C Eb - Gb(F#) - Bbb if we have the C Whole-Tone Diminished scale (Mode I) as you wrote,

    C-D-Eb-F-Gb(F#)-Ab(G#)-Bbb(A)-Cb(B), but...

    We have the SAME C dim7 chord or arpeggio C - Eb(D#) - Gb(F#) - Bbb if we have a different diminished scale - the C Diminished Half Tone scale (Mode II) - C - C#(Db) - D# - E - F# - G - A - Bb.

    The chord - Cdim7 is the same but some scale note are different:

    Mode I - C-D-Eb-F-Gb(F#)-Ab(G#)-Bbb(A)-Cb(B)
    Mode II - C - C#(Db) - D# - E - F# - G - A - Bb.

    In short.
    IMHO, just seeing the Cdim7 chord without the harmonic environment, it's difficult to find out the rest of the diminished scale notes.
     
  10. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    Having C-C#-D#-E-F#-G-A-Bb would give you C-D#-F#-A arpeggio which doesn't make any sense... sure they are the same enharmonic notes but they are the wrong note names because wrote like that gives you root-aug2nd-aug4th-6 instead of root-flat3rd-dim5th-dim7th which follow the same arpeggio logic as any other arpeggio.

    Just take C-Eb-Gb-Bbb arpeggio for a Cdim7 then you can have Eb-Gb-Bbb-Dbb(C) gives you Ebdim7 ( yes they are all a minor 3rd appart and I had to change C to Dbb to keep that logic ). then I could have Gbdim7 with Gb-Bbb-Dbb-Fbb(Eb) again with the same 4 enharmonic notes.

    of course instead of Gbdim7 we could call it F#dim7 if you wish, but use the right enharmonic name.

    Also mode II (HWHWHWHW) would make a lot more sense to me wrote like that :
    C-Db-Eb-Fbb-Gb-Abb-Bbb-Cbb
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
  11. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    I wanted to add something to my answer... since the diminished scale has 8 tones that gives you an arpeggio with only minor3rd then it doesn't really have a root since you can start on any note and still end up with a diminished sound.
     
  12. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Every scale has a beginning note, known as the "root"...even a Diminished scale. Diminished CHORDS often have a specific Root movement/function, (known as "Passing Diminished"), within the overall harmonic context, and the root of the Diminished chord and scale is knowable and important.
    But if your approach and analysis works for you, then good for you. I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise.
    Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
     
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  13. Lownote38

    Lownote38

    Aug 8, 2013
    Nashville, TN
    Wow. Just wow. :roflmao:
     
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  14. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Here is what strange. o_O
    In this thread, we got so DEEEEEEP :vomit: into that diminished scale "exploration" but in the very next thread of the General Instruction's forum, "Advice on exotic scales to learn", the OP says,

    "I'm just about to have a look on youtube for diminished scales I don't think I've heard of them before. :confused:

     
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  15. Lownote38

    Lownote38

    Aug 8, 2013
    Nashville, TN
    ... and yet no one mentioned the diminished whole tone scale (different than whole tone diminished) that is used a lot in jazz.
     
  16. Mushroo

    Mushroo Supporting Member

    Apr 2, 2007
    Massachusetts, USA
    Hi ThePresident777, I wanted to check in and ask how you are coming with Sonny Sharrock's "Ask the Ages" now that you've had a whole week to work on it? Which song did you pick to learn first? How is the challenge level for you? (Too easy, too hard, or just right?) Have you learned anything interesting about key signatures, chords, scales, rhythms, melodies, etc. by studying this music?

    For example, this song "Many Mansions," can you figure out any "music theory facts" about this composition, like: what is the key? what is the time signature? what is the chord progression? what scale(s) are being used? do you hear a main, repeating "riff" and if so, can you pick up your bass and play along with it?

    Does "Many Mansions" remind you of any other songs or musicians you like, and if so, in what way?

     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  17. I suppose it is possible that somewhere, sometime, somehow it would make sense to think of that collection of notes as a root, flat nine, flat 3, diminished 11(you meant Fb, not Fbb), flat 5, diminished 13, diminished 7 and doubly diminished octave. I cannot imagine what such a context would be...

    Here in the real world that's almost always a dominant sound with a sharp 11 and both altered 9ths: C Db D# E F# G A Bb
     
    Spin Doctor likes this.
  18. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    Yes I did a mistake with Fb

    And your way of describing it is more in tune with jazz music. There is plenty of exemple of diminished scale in classical musique where it is written very differently.
     
  19. Such as?
     
  20. Clef_de_fa

    Clef_de_fa Guest

    Dec 25, 2011
    Debussy's "Nuage", Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" or Bach's Sarabande of the English suite no3
     

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