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Led Zep's Rock N Roll

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Depth_Charge, Feb 25, 2008.


  1. The drummer in my cover band has 18 years under his belt and is musically pushing us harder with the song selections he nominates. I am relishing the challenge and don't mind him injecting more difficult songs in what we play.

    We are playing Rock N Roll by Led Zeppelin and despite asking for a simple 4 count into the song, the drummer is insisting on playing the drum intro. Which is fine but I can't for the life of me work out the count! :confused:

    The guitarist says everyone comes in on the "2 and", and the drummer says it starts "on the 3". When I listen to the recording, I can't count it quick enough to be certain where they are starting and I tend to come in at the wrong point, usually after the others :(

    For some reason, I keep losing the progression during the guitar solo too. It still sounds OK, but it sure is embarrassing and it doesn't do anyone any favours when I do it on the fretless :)

    If someone could break down the timing on the intro as far as the theory goes for me, I'd really appreciate it. I'm pretty sure the verse is 4/4, but I'm not certain the intro is.

    Seems such a simple song too, standard progression and all that. Not sure why I'm struggling with it!
     
  2. Lesfunk

    Lesfunk Supporting Member

    I've never worked it out. When I play it (rarely) I just watch the drummers foot for the down beat.
     
  3. canshaker

    canshaker

    Dec 15, 2007
    Los Angeles, CA
    Endorsing Artist: Ashdown/ESP/Dunlop/Line 6/Normandy.
    if you were to count like this: "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" for each measure, then the downbeat is on the "&", after the "2" of the 5th measure.
     
  4. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass

    This is right. This is where you should be in. The lick starts on the and of one.



    Aj
     
  5. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    The drums intro plays.

    2 bars of 4/4

    1 bar of 7/8

    1 bar of 4/4

    1 bar of 2/4


    This should add up right.

    This is just for you to hear that intro clearer. Ask him to play it stupid slow a couple for times at each rehearsal for a month, count along. Listen to how the snare is lining up with the count. Don't feel a need to count the 7/8 bar in eighths just feel that subdivision and start your new bar of four "early".It will line up with a snare hit.I would never try to count this on stage. Just feel it once you've got it.






    Aj
     
  6. Lesfunk

    Lesfunk Supporting Member

    so far, my method works best
     
  7. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    I agree with Lesfunk


    Aj
     
  8. Thanks guys, I think. . . :)
     
  9. Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

    Alvaro Martín Gómez A. TalkBass' resident Bongo + cowbell player

    Here's a very basic version of the drum intro showing the way I understand it (It always works for me):

    RockandRolldrumintro.

    And here's an audio file with the MIDI (including a click, exactly what I count):

    http://media.putfile.com/Rock-and-Roll-drum-intro

    Hope this helps.
     
  10. With things like this I tend to feel them (obviously it helps to really get to know the song first). Personally, I would watch the drummer as he's most likely to go for a cymbal crash on the beat where you all come in, so keep an eye on his hands and/or make eye contact with him. Over time, as you get used to it, you'll start hearing where it is and rely on this visual clue less and less.
     
  11. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass

    This is how I usually approach this stuff and exactly how I learned this song back in the day.


    That last little build up is 2 beats long thats how I got it. Thats the part I focused on.


    What ever allows you to "get it" is all that matters.




    That said I like to explain why I divided it the way I did. Just because it' fun and will actually help you learn it faster.



    Look at the music Alvaro posted.


    Look at the snare pattern

    Down beat, rest for 1/4 and another snare on the & of 2. If you look at that third bar as 7/8 you would start the pattern again downbeat & of 2. Then a "surprise"(this note is one that really sets your ear up) on the & of 3 and a & of 4 leading into a 2 beat 1/8 note build up.


    Alvaro do you have the ability to edit your sequence so you have that 7/8 bar? If you can could you post it I believe you'll hear what I'm talking about. All its going to do Is make that second half feel normal instead of displaced.



    Aj
     
  12. Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

    Alvaro Martín Gómez A. TalkBass' resident Bongo + cowbell player

    Sure! Here's your version :):

    RockandRolldrumintroversion2.

    Sounds exactly the same than mine. It's another way to understand it.
     
  13. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Thanks! Could you post the audio file with the MIDI? Possibly a "slow" version as well.




    Yes, It is just another way to understand it. I believe its a more "correct" way of viewing/hearing it.


    The whole point is for the written music to look like it sounds,right,or as close as we can get given the restraints of our nomenclature.


    The way I've written it the accents of the groove are represented in the written music.

    I posted before why I feel it should be dropped where I did. Even looking at the music written it "looks" right.You can see the shapes of the patterns.

    It should sound subtly different. If your midi music has that count and it changes with the 7/8 bar you'll hear the phrases of the last 2 bars line line up with the count.Thus, you'll hear that "One" clearer.Which is the whole point.




    Really all we're doing is debating where to drop the 1/8 note right? Why drop it where you have? Please,give me a reason that I can hear and I'm cool. There are many ways to skin the cat.

    Thanks for writing that out for me Alvaro you obviously have a strong grasp on this stuff. :)



    Aj
     
  14. Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

    Alvaro Martín Gómez A. TalkBass' resident Bongo + cowbell player

  15. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass


    Funny, sounds like our debate.


    Depth Charge..... How we doing?


    Aj
     
  16. Lesfunk

    Lesfunk Supporting Member

    It's no longer Rock and roll. It's becoming Algebra
     
  17. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Don't patronize, It doesn't work, IMHO you come off like you underestimate Zeppelin, These guys we're serious musicians.







    Aj
     
  18. Lesfunk

    Lesfunk Supporting Member

    What are you talking about? Zeppelin was a great band and they all are great musicians.
    It was a joke.
     
  19. I always listened for the 5 snare whacks at the end of the intro.

    If you listen to the song over and over again, you will find you can anticipate the, "BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP,BOP" - I always ignored the first part of what any drummer does to that intro - cuz they all have their own way of doing it. My goal was to listen for that final snare salvo and climb on board. I count that final snares as "&3&4&" which lands me nicely on 1.

    As long as your drum is not trying to be deliberately vague and changing up the way he finishes his intro, you should be able to pick it up that way. He could monkey all he wants with the on and off beat snare whacks in the first part, but as long as he pulls it all together at the end with the 5 snare beats, you should be good to go.
     
  20. Lesfunk

    Lesfunk Supporting Member

    nice
     

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